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Turkey shoots down Russian war plane on Syria border {W:164]

Lord of Planar said:
But that is the claim I responded to.




That isn't hard evidence of any wrong doing. At least I didn't see any in what I read, or the video. Just allowing movement across the border isn't enough evidence. Do you wish for a complete shutdown at the border?

Journalists say many things. The drivers probably don't know the facts, and may have an agenda themselves, and the reports could be cherry picked. We simply don't know the truth. having to wait 12 days at the border tells me that the supplies are being looked at. there was a shipment that some wanted to search, but was denied by higher ups. Maybe they already knew what the cargo was, maybe it was perishable, and couldn't wait the nominal 12 days.

See why I would like to see a "money quote?"

I know how journalists twist the truth, so badly sometimes, that the end resulting stories are lies. I seldom take things at face value, because deception is common.

So...

Was there anything decisive I missed about wrongdoing?
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http://english.alarabiya.net/en/New...ey-seizes-arms-in-truck-bound-for-Syria-.html

"Thursday, 2 January 2014

Turkish security forces have seized a truck laden with weapons bound for Syria and arrested three people including a Syrian, local media reported on Thursday.

Acting on a tipoff, security forces on Wednesday stopped the truck in the southern province of Hatay on the Syrian border, Hurriyet newspaper reported.

A significant quantity of ammunition and weapons were discovered in the truck, whose drivers claimed they were carrying aid on behalf of the pro-Islamic Humanitarian Relief Foundation (IHH)."
 
Andalublue said:
They wouldn't need to. The guarantee that were they to ignore the wishes of their benefactors they would lose money, supplies and legal/diplomatic protection is quite sufficient. I can't say with certainty that the US specifically approved the hand-over of arms to al-Nusra, but it really wouldn't be unprecedented. Nor, for that matter, can you claim otherwise with any corroborative evidence to back you up.
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Ah yes because when trying to get across ISIS controlled territory with your head still on your shoulders promises to the US trumps ones own life, touché.
 
flogger said:
Why would Russia aid an organisation that kills its citizens in a bloody terrorist act and that has publicly gloated about doing so ?

ISIS release picture of bomb they claim was used to down Russian plane in Egypt | Daily Mail Online

Your premise is utterly ridiculous
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Why don't you ask Russia why they're refusing to target ISIS and doing nothing but attacking their opposition.

'More than 90%' of Russian airstrikes in Syria have not targeted Isis, US says | World news | The Guardian

'Russia kills US-backed Syrian rebels in second day of air strikes as Iran prepares for ground offensive' - Telegraph

Get educated on what's going on before you call others ridiculous.
 
DaveFagan said:
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/New...ey-seizes-arms-in-truck-bound-for-Syria-.html

"Thursday, 2 January 2014

Turkish security forces have seized a truck laden with weapons bound for Syria and arrested three people including a Syrian, local media reported on Thursday.

Acting on a tipoff, security forces on Wednesday stopped the truck in the southern province of Hatay on the Syrian border, Hurriyet newspaper reported.

A significant quantity of ammunition and weapons were discovered in the truck, whose drivers claimed they were carrying aid on behalf of the pro-Islamic Humanitarian Relief Foundation (IHH)."
Click to expand...

Why don't you go ahead and complete your syllogism, Dave ??

We got "All men are mortal."

So what about Socrates then ??

Complete your though.
 
starcitizen said:
Why don't you ask Russia why they're refusing to target ISIS and doing nothing but attacking their opposition.

'More than 90%' of Russian airstrikes in Syria have not targeted Isis, US says | World news | The Guardian

'Russia kills US-backed Syrian rebels in second day of air strikes as Iran prepares for ground offensive' - Telegraph

Get educated on what's going on before you call others ridiculous.
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I guess the Russians must just have imagined losing that airliner over the Sinai to ISIS terrorism then

Silly me :roll:

Perhaps you should get up to date rather than listening to what the US claimed two months ago

Russian jets destroy hundreds of ISIS terror targets in just two days across Syria | World | News | Daily Express

As long as ISIS is being killed I really couldnt care less who else is in the region frankly. Let them get on with it
 
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Turkish map:

Turkish version.jpg


Russian Maps released by Russiam MoD( Ministry of Defence):

The very first one:

Russian 1.jpg

This first one is very close to Turkish map, but somehow not the same.

The Second one:

Russian 2.jpg


In the second map, The Russian jet made an impossible turn, for The SU-24 jet can make turn at radious of 3 km.


The final one:

Russian 3.jpg

The final one is released by Russian MoD, and they removed that impossbile turn in the final map, in this final map, The path of the jet is seen in south, which raises some questions why the jet was in Latakia close to Turkish border while Russian claimed The jet was bombing Maarat an Numan in Idlib.
 
Re: Turkey shoots down Russian war plane on Syria border

Turkey's version of plane attack doesn't add up

'The key fact is the Russian plane, by Turkey's own admission, was in Turkish airspace for precisely 17 seconds. That's a little less time than it takes to read this paragraph aloud. The Turks shot it down anyway -- and their allies publicly backed them, as loyal allies must.

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg declared: "We stand in solidarity with Turkey and support territorial integrity of our NATO ally, Turkey."

President Barack Obama called his Turkish counterpart, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, to assure him the U.S. supported Turkey's right to defend its sovereignty. But privately, they must have been cursing Erdogan. They know what he's up to.

This is the first time in more than 50 years that a NATO plane has shot down a Russian plane, and it happened in very suspicious circumstances.

Even if Turkish radar data is to be believed, the two Russian SU-24s only crossed the bottom of a very narrow appendix of Turkish territory that dangles down into Syria. As Russian President Vladimir Putin said: "Our pilots, planes did not threaten Turkish territory in any way. " What harm could they have done in 17 seconds?

According to Russian radar data, it was the Turkish planes that crossed into Syrian territory. In this version of the story, the Russian planes were following a well-established route just south of the Turkish border, probably turning into a bomb run against Syrian rebels in Latakia province. How strange there was a Turkish TV crew in northern Syria, positioned just right to film the incident. (The Russsian plane crashed 4 km. inside Syria.)

Either way, it seems clear President Erdogan really wanted to shoot down a Russian aircraft, and the Turkish pilots were under orders to do so if they could find even the slightest pretext. So why would Erdogan want to do that?

President Putin said bitterly Erdogan and colleagues were "accomplices of terrorists". That's hard to deny: Erdogan is so eager to see Syria's President Bashar al-Assad overthrown he left the Turkish-Syrian border open for four years so recruits and supplies could reach Syrian rebel groups, notably including Islamic State (IS).

Erdogan is determined Assad must go. But he also wants to ensure there is no new Kurdish state on Turkey's southern border.

The Syrian Kurds are the US-led coalition's only effective ally on the ground against IS.

When Erdogan committed the Turkish air force to the Syrian war in July, he explained it to the U.S. as a decision to fight Islamic State, but in fact Turkey has made only a token handful of strikes against IS. Almost all Erdogan's bombs have actually fallen on the Turkish Kurds of the PKK and above all on the Syrian Kurds

Erdogan has two goals: ensure destruction of Assad's regime, and prevent creation of a new Kurdish state in Syria. He was making progress on both -- and then along came the Russians in September and saved the Syrian army from defeat, at least for the moment.

Worse yet, Putin's strategy turns out to quite pragmatic, and even rather attractive to the U.S. despite all the anti-Russian propaganda by Washington. Putin wants a ceasefire in Syria that will leave everybody where they are now -- except Islamic State, which they can all then concentrate on destroying.

This strategy is now making headway in the Vienna ceasefire talks, but it is utterly abhorrent to Erdogan because it would leave Assad in power in Damascus, and give the Syrian Kurds time to consolidate their new state. How can he derail this Russian-led project?

Well, he could shoot down a Russian plane, and try to get a confrontation going between Russia and NATO.'

Turkey's version of plane attack doesn't add up | The London Free Press
 
Riveroaks said:
Why don't you go ahead and complete your syllogism, Dave ??

We got "All men are mortal."

So what about Socrates then ??

Complete your though.
Click to expand...

Planar wanted some proof Turkey's IHH was supplying weapons. The incident quoted happened in Turkey and is pretty damning as regards IHH. I presumed he could reach his own conclusions with the information given, but if not, I am prepared to show that the reporters responsible for breaking this story in Turkey are under arrest in Turkey for revealing state secrets (IHH weapons to ISIS) and several Generals have been arrested for having leaked info on the trucks. So much for freedom of the press in Turkey. I understand that you admire Greek logic.
 
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cvd_6cdwcaqaf5j-e1448907201321.jpg

Russian planes dropping white phosphorous (WP) on civilian areas in Syria
 
DaveFagan said:
Planar wanted some proof Turkey's IHH was supplying weapons. The incident quoted happened in Turkey and is pretty damning as regards IHH. I presumed he could reach his own conclusions with the information given, but if not, I am prepared to show that the reporters responsible for breaking this story in Turkey are under arrest in Turkey for revealing state secrets (IHH weapons to ISIS) and several Generals have been arrested for having leaked info on the trucks. So much for freedom of the press in Turkey. I understand that you admire Greek logic.
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LOL...

OK, where is the proof?

Keep in mind, I didn't say it isn't happening and said something like if it's true, the head of the organization should be in jail. I forget the name though. Also stated i saw no evidence. So, if you have solid evidence, by all means. Show it to us.

Greek logic? Never though about a name being applied to my reasoning. Did a quick search, didn't see much except it is the origin or reasoning in science, philosophy, etc.

have a link handy by chance that explains such distinction between logic styles?
 
Another two Russian aircrats(930 and 927) are downed near Turkish border today.
 
starcitizen said:
Ya so a stupid comment by Obama is why Russia is actively aiding ISIS.
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No.

I was being comical, but it's hard to indicate in a form.

It was answered that ISIS is not Russia's primary mission right now. They are helping the rightful leader of an allied country. Right now, ISIS is a small threat to that goal.
 
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