• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Athletics doping: Wada commission wants Russia ban

PeteEU said:
~ No. I am saying that I find it odd that Russia are singled out when both the IAAF dropped the ball, and other countries at best ignored a similar problem in their own ranks for decades.
Click to expand...

So the problem of state sponsored doping programs occur among other countries? That's the deflection you are attempting.

PeteEU said:
~ Because the vote is among 22 people... not hard to talk to each other and agree what to do is it now?
Click to expand...

Especially when they have taken huge backhanders to do so eh? Is that what you are so vehemently defending?

PeteEU said:
~ Not deflecting at all.. pointing out the hypocrisy. Yes Russia may or may not have done what they are accused off.. but the whole process seems very political since other countries have been doing similar things for decades and have not been called out in the same manner.
Click to expand...

The effing Russian's confessed on BBC Newsnight last night for cripes sake!

BBC iPlayer - Newsnight - 10/11/2015

STOP deflecting!
 
PeteEU said:
Denis Alekseyev, Vladimir Andreyev, Yuriy Andronoov, Tatianna Arysova, Yelena Arzhakova, Anna Adeyeva... and that is just in the As... all Russian athletic sportsmen/women.. all banned. Your assumption is wrong.
Click to expand...

It's not an assumption on my part - have you even read the OP? Try to hang in there with us Pete.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
So the problem of state sponsored doping programs occur among other countries? That's the deflection you are attempting.
Click to expand...

No you are deflecting. You are so focused on the "state sponsored" aspect, but ignore fully how sports are run in countries. Sports in places like Russia and even Denmark (non popular ones) are run by the state or have heavy state influence. For example, in Denmark almost all our athletics athletes are sponsored by the state. The anti-doping agency in Denmark is an independent organisation under the Ministry of Culture. In the UK, guess where Anti-Doping UK gets its funding?

Where as in the US, there is next to no involvement and it is run by either private corporations or the athletes themselves.

So you are telling me it is far far worse that the state is involved than if it was the "industry" or private companies themselves that was doing the cheating? Seriously?

Especially when they have taken huge backhanders to do so eh? Is that what you are so vehemently defending?
Click to expand...

Backhanders? What are you talking about? Bribes? Got proof of that? Or could it be that the internal politics of FIFA just made it so much easier to agree about Russia than the UK?

The effing Russian's confessed on BBC Newsnight last night for cripes sake!

BBC iPlayer - Newsnight - 10/11/2015

STOP deflecting!
Click to expand...

And? They are also cleaning it up if you have been following the news... I aint deflecting .. you are avoiding the truth by ignoring facts.
 
PeteEU said:
No you are deflecting. You are so focused on the "state sponsored" aspect, but ignore fully how sports are run in countries. Sports in places like Russia and even Denmark (non popular ones) are run by the state or have heavy state influence. For example, in Denmark almost all our athletics athletes are sponsored by the state. The anti-doping agency in Denmark is an independent organisation under the Ministry of Culture. In the UK, guess where Anti-Doping UK gets its funding?

Where as in the US, there is next to no involvement and it is run by either private corporations or the athletes themselves.

So you are telling me it is far far worse that the state is involved than if it was the "industry" or private companies themselves that was doing the cheating? Seriously?



Backhanders? What are you talking about? Bribes? Got proof of that? Or could it be that the internal politics of FIFA just made it so much easier to agree about Russia than the UK?



And? They are also cleaning it up if you have been following the news... I aint deflecting .. you are avoiding the truth by ignoring facts.
Click to expand...

I love how even when beaten, you continue as if nothing has changed. FYI - the Russians are now going to admit so they can avoid total ban. that's the second admission you're going to ignore.

Athletics doping scandal: Russian federation to admit some charges - BBC Sport
 
PeteEU said:
That is bull****. Baseball and the NFL, both organisations have hidden doping on an industrial scale and still are. Hell cheating seems to be normal in those 2 sports..

US athletics hid failed doping tests for decades... going back to the late 1970s and on ward. Carl Lewis was most likely doped up the.. during his career but was never busted. Jackie Joyner-Kersee was most likely doped. Why? because Florence Griffith Joyner was most likely dopped.. and her coach was Jackies, plus her husband was Jackies brother.. also another one under suspicion.

Lance Armstrong was allowed by US Cycling to go on for a decade.. they knew very well what he was doing. No serious investigations were ever started by official US authorities in the sport, because they saw it as a "French attack on Lance".. guess what.. the French were right!

So sorry, but the Russians are hardly alone in this mess, but no one dares investigate American sports...
Click to expand...


Yet it was U.S. federal prosecutors that hounded him and it was the USADA that broke the case.
 
Beaudreaux said:
The US admits when we get caught, and holds offenders accountable - the Russians do neither.

I can keep repeating these two facts over and over, or we can just stop here.
Click to expand...

There. Fixed it.
 
Higgins86 said:
Yet it was U.S. federal prosecutors that hounded him and it was the USADA that broke the case.
Click to expand...

Doping is still rampant in cycling. It's not where it was, where athletes were getting 10-15% gains. Instead abuses like micro dosing yield 3-5% and cumulative gains from other forms of cheating yield another 3-5%. Doping is also becoming commonplace at the amateur level. People are risking their lives with EPO to win "non-competitive" grand fondos.

And what of strongman and body building? Doping isn't exactly underground there.

Bottom line, don't single out the Russians. It's a world wide problem.
 
Mithros said:
Doping is still rampant in cycling. It's not where it was, where athletes were getting 10-15% gains. Instead abuses like micro dosing yield 3-5% and cumulative gains from other forms of cheating yield another 3-5%. Doping is also becoming commonplace at the amateur level. People are risking their lives with EPO to win "non-competitive" grand fondos.

And what of strongman and body building? Doping isn't exactly underground there.

Bottom line, don't single out the Russians. It's a world wide problem.
Click to expand...

It is an issue worldwide however not on this scale. Countries like the US, UK etc actually investigate drug claims and do everything in its power to stop it from happening. This report however shows that this is not the case in Russia and in many instances doping is actually encouraged/ swept under the rug by the Russian government.
 
Russian FSB agents (the modern version of the Soviet KGB) were at both the Moscow and Sochi test labs to make sure Russian athlete's on PED's would pass muster.

This isn't a few outlier athlete's going illegal. It is a massive state-sponsored doping program that has tainted virtually every sport in which Russian athletes compete.


The official World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) Report about Russia...

THE INDEPENDENT COMMISSION REPORT #1 | FINAL REPORT | November 9, 2015 (pdf)
 
Higgins86 said:
It is an issue worldwide however not on this scale. Countries like the US, UK etc actually investigate drug claims and do everything in its power to stop it from happening. This report however shows that this is not the case in Russia and in many instances doping is actually encouraged/ swept under the rug by the Russian government.
Click to expand...

Simpleχity;1065242123 said:
Russian FSB agents (the modern version of the Soviet KGB) were at both the Moscow and Sochi test labs to make sure Russian athlete's on PED's would pass muster.

This isn't a few outlier athlete's going illegal. It is a massive state-sponsored doping program that has tainted virtually every sport in which Russian athletes compete.


The official World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) Report about Russia...

THE INDEPENDENT COMMISSION REPORT #1 | FINAL REPORT | November 9, 2015 (pdf)
Click to expand...

New doping crisis to 'shake the foundation' of athletics - Yahoo News
Conte says coverup protected big stars at Seoul Games | The Japan Times

Doping affects more than just performance as well. It allows you to make bigger gains in the off-season, to heal faster, and work harder. And yes, these agencies all look the other way because it's in everyone's best interest. Athletes become superstars, companies secure endorsements, organizations get ratings....

It's not just a Russian problem, nor is Russia the only country to be involved in a national level. Yeah.. the Russians are dirty... But I think it's more of a case of them being less sophisticated than the rest of the dopers which go under the radar.
 
Higgins86 said:
It is an issue worldwide however not on this scale. Countries like the US, UK etc actually investigate drug claims and do everything in its power to stop it from happening. This report however shows that this is not the case in Russia and in many instances doping is actually encouraged/ swept under the rug by the Russian government.
Click to expand...

And that is where I call bull****. The UK might, but the US certainly does not. There is plenty of evidence of collusion between the dopers and the testers over the last 20 plus years. Sure they have to bust some for appearances, but usually it is only after massive pressure from outside.. like a failed test in an international event.

Yes it is bad what the Russians have done or are alleged to have done, but it is no different than what the US and others have been doing for decades. The Russians might have been doing it via the state, but that is frankly irrelevant since sports elsewhere is organized by grassroots/sports themselves and they are just as bad. Oh in the US case, some sports are actually protected by law... so there is state involvement. Baseball comes to mind.
 
A Doping Travesty Russia Cannot Duck

13fri2-master675.jpg

President Vladimir Putin of Russia at a sports center in Sochi on Wednesday
 
PeteEU said:
After his active career....
Click to expand...

Yeh and they humiliated him, stripped him of everything and the man is now currently being sued by several companies.
 
PeteEU said:
And that is where I call bull****. The UK might, but the US certainly does not. There is plenty of evidence of collusion between the dopers and the testers over the last 20 plus years. Sure they have to bust some for appearances, but usually it is only after massive pressure from outside.. like a failed test in an international event.

Yes it is bad what the Russians have done or are alleged to have done, but it is no different than what the US and others have been doing for decades. The Russians might have been doing it via the state, but that is frankly irrelevant since sports elsewhere is organized by grassroots/sports themselves and they are just as bad. Oh in the US case, some sports are actually protected by law... so there is state involvement. Baseball comes to mind.
Click to expand...

That's your narrative Pete but it's way off. Look at what happened to Marion Jones, she women actually went to prison.
 
PeteEU said:
And that is where I call bull****. The UK might, but the US certainly does not. There is plenty of evidence of collusion between the dopers and the testers over the last 20 plus years. Sure they have to bust some for appearances, but usually it is only after massive pressure from outside.. like a failed test in an international event.

Yes it is bad what the Russians have done or are alleged to have done, but it is no different than what the US and others have been doing for decades. The Russians might have been doing it via the state, but that is frankly irrelevant since sports elsewhere is organized by grassroots/sports themselves and they are just as bad. Oh in the US case, some sports are actually protected by law... so there is state involvement. Baseball comes to mind.
Click to expand...

Nobody else minds about baseball, it's only played by them.
 
Higgins86 said:
It is an issue worldwide however not on this scale. Countries like the US, UK etc actually investigate drug claims and do everything in its power to stop it from happening. This report however shows that this is not the case in Russia and in many instances doping is actually encouraged/ swept under the rug by the Russian government.
Click to expand...

It's totally on this scale, and the other countries certainly don't do everything in their power to stop it. Doping is an arms race between the dopers and the agencies. Spend an hour online looking at forums and you'll see just how prevalent it actually is. SARMS like MK-677 and GW501516 are banned legal substances that are ridiculously easy to get. And because of the night-time ban on testing, athletes can microdose on EPO without flagging the biological passport. Football players "heal" ridiculously fast and come back without seemingly missing a step.

The difference between top athletes is very small. The benefit from doping is relatively large. The funding for testing is very small and the prospects of being caught are fairly minor. If the US was actually serious about athletes health, they'd pursue this more thoroughly. But it's not in their best interest to do that. Sure they have to make it look like they're trying, but evidence shows otherwise.

The Contributor | Everyone?s Juicing: A Supply-Side Glimpse of the PED Black Market
Someone is buying this stuff....
 
Higgins86 said:
It is an issue worldwide however not on this scale. Countries like the US, UK etc actually investigate drug claims and do everything in its power to stop it from happening. This report however shows that this is not the case in Russia and in many instances doping is actually encouraged/ swept under the rug by the Russian government.
Click to expand...

Here's a good report by the WADA. They did a bunch of anonymous tests and found that 1-2% of athletes tested positive. Not bad right? But they know that their tests are unlikely to pick up the more advanced doping techniques. So they gave an anonymous survey. The numbers were staggering. 43% at the WAC in Korea, 57% in the Pan Arab Games in Qatar. You're looking at half or more of elite athletes.... The Russians may be terrible offenders, but they're hardly alone.


http://www.parliament.uk/documents/...t/WADA's-athlete-doping-prevalence-survey.pdf
 
It's not an international sport, they're cheating among themselves. The Russians are cheating everyone else.
 
Higgins86 said:
That's your narrative Pete but it's way off. Look at what happened to Marion Jones, she women actually went to prison.
Click to expand...

Yes she did.. but not for doping.. but for lying to federal investigators and only after she was done running.

She in fact never got busted during her active careerer... It is only after she ended her careerer, and the whole BALCO investigation got into gear (finally), did she get exposed.

The irony is, that after the fact, the US Anti-Doping Agency disqualified her from all her results... but why did they not catch her before she stopped? She has been plagued by accusations since the late 1990s, and everyone around her were either suspected or busted for doping.. and yet the US Anti-Doping system never caught her?
 
Higgins86 said:
Yeh and they humiliated him, stripped him of everything and the man is now currently being sued by several companies.
Click to expand...

Yes, and? Why did they not bust him during his active career? It is not like there were no suspicions about him...
 
Simpleχity;1065244469 said:
A Doping Travesty Russia Cannot Duck
Click to expand...

Athletics doping: Russia provisionally suspended by IAAF
Russia's athletics federation has been provisionally suspended from international competition - including the Olympic Games - for its alleged involvement in widespread doping.

The IAAF took action after the publication of an independent World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada) report that alleged "state-sponsored doping".

Its council members voted 22-1 in favour of Russia being banned.
Click to expand...

No prizes for guessing who the "one" country that voted against the ban was....
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Well what a surprise there... (not)

Hope this has implications for the World Cup in Russia too, I expect widespread foul play there.
Click to expand...

Russia is the Lance Armstrong of atheletics :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom