Texas Case Mulls if Home-school Kids Have to Learn Something

Excon said:

Why am I opposed to it?
Because, as it is, there are no standards in place to assure the kids are educated to societies standards.

Testing would show they are.

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Societies standards? Do you mean like reading at a third grade level and being able to graduate so some little darling doesn't feel badly about himself. Those types of standards.

I grew up in Massachusetts. In 11th grade I was reading Joyce, Dostoyevsky Hemingway Kafka etc. moved to Florida and the top private schools were like 30 miles away so my parents sent me to catholic school. English class was vocabulary at literally an 8th grade level. I would have been much better off at a public school honors program.

I can't imagine how badly home school kids are provided opportunities to learn and grow.

Troubling.

Somerville said:

In another thread, we got a little off topic when a discussion of the reality of the Biblical Flood swung into talking about the 'virtues' of home-schooling one's children. Now a case from Texas brings to light some of the problems with home-schooling in America.

In Texas there are no, none, zero requirements that parents who home school must meet in order to continue 'schooling' their children


Since the McIntyre's believe the Rapture is imminent, they believe that teaching their children basic skills like "Readin' Writin' n 'rithmitic" just ain't necessary. Texas evidently doesn't care that children are being raised in a manner which will make them unable to do more than barely subsist in an increasingly technologically-oriented world. You know - Parents know what's best for their kids. :roll:

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How does one case that made the news become "Texas evidently doesn't care"?

State Requirements

Texas State Law Requirements Regarding Home Schooling

To home school legally in Texas, you must follow three state law requirements:
•The instruction must be bona fide (i.e., not a sham).
•The curriculum must be in visual form (e.g., books, workbooks, video monitor).
•The curriculum must include the five basic subjects of reading, spelling, grammar, mathematics, and good citizenship. State Requirements – Texas Home School Coalition - THSC

https://www.thsc.org/homeschooling-in-texas/state-requirements/texas-education-code/

nota bene said:

How does one case that made the news become "Texas evidently doesn't care"?

State Requirements

Texas State Law Requirements Regarding Home Schooling

To home school legally in Texas, you must follow three state law requirements:
•The instruction must be bona fide (i.e., not a sham).
•The curriculum must be in visual form (e.g., books, workbooks, video monitor).
•The curriculum must include the five basic subjects of reading, spelling, grammar, mathematics, and good citizenship. State Requirements – Texas Home School Coalition - THSC

https://www.thsc.org/homeschooling-in-texas/state-requirements/texas-education-code/

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Wow, that's it? No science? "Good citizenship?"

Shooterman35 said:

Societies standards? Do you mean like reading at a third grade level and being able to graduate so some little darling doesn't feel badly about himself. Those types of standards.

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Are those the actual standards?
If not, what the hell are you talking about?

Alyssa T. said:

Wow, that's it? No science? "Good citizenship?"

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It doesn't matter what the standards are. There's no verification.

Somerville said:

In another thread, we got a little off topic when a discussion of the reality of the Biblical Flood swung into talking about the 'virtues' of home-schooling one's children. Now a case from Texas brings to light some of the problems with home-schooling in America.

In Texas there are no, none, zero requirements that parents who home school must meet in order to continue 'schooling' their children


Since the McIntyre's believe the Rapture is imminent, they believe that teaching their children basic skills like "Readin' Writin' n 'rithmitic" just ain't necessary. Texas evidently doesn't care that children are being raised in a manner which will make them unable to do more than barely subsist in an increasingly technologically-oriented world. You know - Parents know what's best for their kids. :roll:

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You are 100% wrong it took like 5 seconds in google to find the requirements.

To home school legally in Texas, you must follow three state law requirements:
•The instruction must be bona fide (i.e., not a sham).
•The curriculum must be in visual form (e.g., books, workbooks, video monitor).
•The curriculum must include the five basic subjects of reading, spelling, grammar, mathematics, and good citizenship

DiAnna said:

Every child is entitled to basic education. If the parents refuse to provide it, that's child neglect. Yes, the state should have gotten involved.

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I agree but look at the inner city schools drop out rate and pass/fail numbers and you will see total failure of school systems all over the country. Teachers are people with college degrees that get paid less than sewer workers.

Soho gator said:

I grew up in Massachusetts. In 11th grade I was reading Joyce, Dostoyevsky Hemingway Kafka etc. moved to Florida and the top private schools were like 30 miles away so my parents sent me to catholic school. English class was vocabulary at literally an 8th grade level. I would have been much better off at a public school honors program.

I can't imagine how badly home school kids are provided opportunities to learn and grow.

Troubling.

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Statistically, home schooled children are far better educated than their public schooled counterparts. People often have the wrong idea about home schooling. Most parents who home school, follow a strict, regimented, home schooling plan prepared by professional educators, in addition to having their kids participate in group activities with other home schooled children.

You'll forgive me if your anecdote about a "catholic school" is not believable.

Every now and then the issue of homeschooling is brought up, usually by a group that is opposed to homeschooling. Fact is that the government, be it State or Federal, has no business in forcing people to send their kids to public school or any other school.

reinoe said:

It doesn't matter what the standards are. There's no verification.

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Yeah, I guess that is true as well. I know a few parents that home school their kids, and they follow some national program and take the kids to all the organized events and outings. Still, I don't know. As long as they can handle college later if they want to go.

Excon said:

Why am I opposed to it?
Because, as it is, there are no standards in place to assure the kids are educated to societies standards.

Testing would show they are.

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Many children in public schools don't do well on those tests. Teachers just keep passing them on and when they graduate they enter the workforce nearly illiterate.

Most states have some sort of regulations for home schools, and in reality, the vast majority of homeschooling parents have very high expectations for their kids and those kids go on to college and to have successful lives. Society only has the right to monitor the actions of taxpayer-funded enterprises, unless actual laws are being broken.

Most of the push against homeschooling comes from the public education system because on average, homeschooler outscore public school kids. Not every homeschooled child - but - on average.

I'm always reminded of Reid Barton when these types of discussions come up. Reed went to public school through 3rd grade, then his parents pulled him out to homeschool, because they didn't think he was learning enough in public school. Reid went on to win international math competitions -- he attended Harvard and he speaks numerous languages.

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He's not the norm - but he represents what is possible when parents take their child's education into their own hands.

Not every homeschooled child will achieve what Reid has but that's not what's really important. Homeschooled kids often play on sports teams with public school kids and many homeschool families team with online charter schools for lessons.

While I don't like seeing any child not getting a good education, I don't support heavy state intervention because it's simply not needed.

HowardBThiname said:

Many children in public schools don't do well on those tests. Teachers just keep passing them on and when they graduate they enter the workforce nearly illiterate.

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Irrelevant top home schooled being tested.

HowardBThiname said:

Most states have some sort of regulations for home schools, and in reality, the vast majority of homeschooling parents have very high expectations for their kids and those kids go on to college and to have successful lives.

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Testing doesn't prohibit that.

HowardBThiname said:

Society only has the right to monitor the actions of taxpayer-funded enterprises, unless actual laws are being broken.

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1. Such testing would be the law, so your "unless" would apply.
2. Education is pretty much a function of society, as such the testing should be required.
3. Society can require pretty much whatever it wants.

HowardBThiname said:

Most of the push against homeschooling comes from the public education system because on average, homeschooler outscore public school kids. Not every homeschooled child - but - on average.

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Which does not prohibit testing.

But I already indicated that this was not my concern. So the reason you think everyone may be against it is irrelevant to the reason I stated I am against it.

HowardBThiname said:

I'm always reminded of Reid Barton when these types of discussions come up. Reed went to public school through 3rd grade, then his parents pulled him out to homeschool, because they didn't think he was learning enough in public school. Reid went on to win international math competitions -- he attended Harvard and he speaks numerous languages.

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So what you are saying is that we should have requirements on who society allows to become parents as well as to educated parents as how to be concerned and involved with their child's education. I am all for that.

HowardBThiname said:

I don't support heavy state intervention because it's simply not needed.

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Again. State involvement would allow it to be ascertained if the child is being educated to the State required standards. Nothing in that testing prohibits the home-schooler from educating to a higher standard.

I know of two or three families that home school in Texas. In each instant the youngmen and women have become productive in life ( at least the ones old enough to be considered grown. A family with seven children, 3 still at home with the oldest studying on line for his preliminary college work.

The oldest is an attorney working in Austin, a graduate of Liberty Law School, passed his bar on the first try, has interned for a federal court judge in Illinois. Ben has a younger brother, also a graduate of Liberty and interning for the same judge. Another younger brother is an A & M Graduate in engineering and is working for an engineering firm in Houston. The oldest daughter has taken several different courses, but chose to get married to a very bright guy and now has a young baby boy.

All of the kids are well rounded individuals, each destined to be productive citizens. I know each personally as they are the children of my wife's nephew. Each was also well grounded in a faith in God. Two other families I know have similar stories.

Excon said:

Are those the actual standards?
If not, what the hell are you talking about?

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No, they are not actual standards.

Alyssa T. said:

Wow, that's it? No science? "Good citizenship?"

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Did you know that colleges require "citizenship" hours? These are history and government classes. Some states require six hours; some require 12.

nota bene said:

Did you know that colleges require "citizenship" hours? These are history and government classes. Some states require six hours; some require 12.

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Yes, I m aware that history and government classes are important. I have never heard them called "good citizenship" before. That clears up the missing humanities, but still doesn't explain how science is not on the list of requirements. Did you know that colleges require science, even for those seeking a degree in the humanities or arts?

Alyssa T. said:

Yeah, I guess that is true as well. I know a few parents that home school their kids, and they follow some national program and take the kids to all the organized events and outings. Still, I don't know. As long as they can handle college later if they want to go.

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If you're genuinely interested, the stats are out there on how homeschooled students' ACT performances compare to their public school counterparts.

nota bene said:

If you're genuinely interested, the stats are out there on how homeschooled students' ACT performances compare to their public school counterparts.

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I know the kids being home schooled by my friends and family are doing fine. I have also had a chance to meet some of the other parents and kids that show up to their outings and fun trips. They seem to be doing very well also. However, all of them are in some very good program designed to aid home schooling, and to build a community among the parents and children taking that route. I am not worried about people doing home schooling with high standards. That doesn't seem to be the case with these people in the OP. That is what I get concerned about. The others out there without guidance or support.

Shooterman35 said:

No, they are not actual standards.

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Okay, that leaves the following question then.

Alyssa T. said:

Yes, I m aware that history and government classes are important. I have never heard them called "good citizenship" before. That clears up the missing humanities, but still doesn't explain how science is not on the list of requirements. Did you know that colleges require science, even for those seeking a degree in the humanities or arts?

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Yes, I do. I can tell you that the curricula offered to homeschool students have depth and breadth (and can be expensive). If you want even a pagan curriculum, it's out there. I also know that if there is a community college or university nearby, it's not at all unusual to have kids 12 and up in chem and biology classes that require labs.

nota bene said:

Yes, I do. I can tell you that the curricula offered to homeschool students have depth and breadth (and can be expensive). I also know that if there is a community college or university nearby, it's not at all unusual to have kids 12 and up in chem and biology classes that require labs.

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Then, don't you find it strange that Texas doesn't have science listed with the other courses? That is what I found strange, the point of my post that you replied to with the poke at me for not knowing what good citizenship stood for.

Excon said:

I am opposed to home schooling.
But if we are going to allow it, there needs to testing to see if the children are meeting public standards.

So in accordance with that, home schooled kids should have to pass the same standardized tests that all the other kids have to pass.

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From what I've seen thus far, the opposition to homeschooling is largely dumb.
If there were a track record of poor performance and poor social cohesion, you'd have a point.

Thus far, home school kids outperform public school kids on the majority of measures I've seen.
That includes social and educational.

I am biased.
We are non religious home schoolers.

Children need to be challenged to excel in their studies. They thrive when they are involved in some competition. Children who are homes-schooled would not have this motivation because most of them are isolated while being "taught". And how in the hell can a home can be as well-equipped as a regular school in terms of facilities. For classes that require experiments like physics and chemistry, how are they going to get all the necessary chemicals, materials, apparatus, and so on. I suppose that home schooling advocates dismiss science anyways, as to them "science is of the devil" Homes also lack facilities for sports like swimming pools, running tracks, gyms, and fields and these are just as important as mathematics and english.

The Texas Home School Association's website gave me a chuckle. Their motto is Keeping Texas Families Free, but this caught my eye:

Can my child receive Social Security benefits while home schooling?

Yes. Families choosing to home school their are completely protected under §404.367 of the Social Security Code. This section states, “You may be eligible for child’s benefits if you are a full-time elementary or secondary school student.” The code then lists qualifications as to who can be considered a full-time elementary or secondary student, stating that one must “attend a school which provides elementary or secondary education as determined under the law of the state or other jurisdiction in which it is located.” Home school children are said to be in compliance with this regulation if they “(a)(1) … are instructed in elementary or secondary education at home in accordance with the home school law of the State or other jurisdiction in which [they] reside.” Furthermore, home school students must carry “(b) … a subject load which is considered full-time for day students under standards and practices set by the State or other jurisdiction in which [they] reside.” (The full text of §404.367 is available online at Code of Federal Regulations § 404.367.) According to Social Security Administration Policy RS 00205.275, student benefits are payable if:

the student is a full-time student,
the state in which the home school is located recognizes home schools as an educational institution,
the home school is in compliance with state requirements for home schools, and
the student meets all other requirements for benefits.

This policy goes on to say, “The child’s home school instructor must submit evidence that state requirements for home schooling are met. The home schooling instructor is the certifying school official for FTA purposes on Form SSA-1372, Student’s Statement Regarding School Attendance.” The state of Texas recognizes home schools as private schools for the purpose of compulsory attendance, and the only requirement for them is to pursue a curriculum that meets the basic educational goals of reading, spelling, grammar, mathematics, and a study of good citizenship. For Texas students, evidence of complying with state law would simply be a list of the courses being taught. (Click here for a legal opinion by counsel to the SSA concerning Texas State Law Requirements for Home Schooling.) If you have trouble claiming benefits from state or federal agencies because of your home school status, you may call the THSC Association at (806) 744-4441.

Can home schoolers take advantage of Education Savings Accounts?

Yes. Education Savings Accounts (ESAs) have been established by the federal government to be much like an Individual Retirement Account (IRA). These accounts may be established, and up to $2,000 per year may be contributed to the account by family members as a non-tax-deductible contribution. The proceeds and interest accrued in these accounts may then be used for educational expenses like tuition, books, and supplies for not only higher education (college) needs but also elementary and secondary education needs as well. In states like Texas that view home schools as private schools, ESAs may be used for students in home schools as well as traditional public or private schools. For more information, see IRS Publication 970, page 40.

Keep us free from the government! Except, when it comes to receiving benefits. Typical.