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Columbus Day or Indigenous People's Day?

digsbe said:
I think the spirit of Columbus day is to celebrate the discovery of the "New World" (even though this wasn't the first encounter). I'd be fine with "New World Day" but I wouldn't change Columbus day to "Indigenous Peoples Day." The spirit of the holiday isn't to celebrate natives.
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Discovering new land on earth is pretty much irrelevant now.

And i dont see people gathering around "Space Colony Day".

I think Indigenous Day could be awesome and healthy. Could lead to tribes putting on Grand awesome rank shows for us and maybe coincide it with new Neo-Indigenous laws that allow people to form tribes in the wild if they want to live that way. With the stipulation "New age tribes have to agree to allow the government to query all children, once a year if they rather join normal, modern day society or remain in the tribe until they are free to make their own choice at age 18." This way once a year the gov can make sure that all the children are actually happy there with an easy way out.


If there was some way to live tribal, lonewolf or other indigenous within nature that would be awesome. With focus on giving them benefits if they live producing no waste. Like maybe bicycle contraptions that you can peddle for an hour a day to get electricity and making it super easy for them to have wireless internet. So we can actually communicate with these people living in perfect balance with nature.
 
The discovery of America by modern/civilized Europe is meaningful. That's what is celebrated. It doesn't matter how many other people discovered it first, the holiday is about Europe doing so.
 
AlbqOwl said:
I have never considered 'Columbus Day' as honoring anybody but rather acknowledging an important event in our national history. Whatever you think of the man, he had the inspiration and courage to see what was out there on the 'edge of the world' and he was the catalyst for the great migration to this nation.
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many claim it was latin invaders who killed millions of natives but they celebrate this day.
 
ecofarm said:
The discovery of America by modern/civilized Europe is meaningful. That's what is celebrated. It doesn't matter how many other people discovered it first, the holiday is about Europe doing so.
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America founded America. Lief Erickson found some new land. Christopher Columbus is irrelevant to America and we should not worship the piece of crap.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
America founded America. Lief Erickson found some new land. Christopher Columbus is irrelevant to America and we should not worship the piece of crap.
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Lief's discovery was meaningless. Columbus' changed the course of history. It's not about who was first, it's about what mattered.
 
Grant said:
LOL! So 'Native Americans' now include people from the Caribbean? That would also cover the Aztecs, Mayan, and so on?

Many of these people, including those in Canada, would be surprised to learn they are now "Native Americans". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Indigenous_peoples_of_Central_America

Is that's really what's being taught in schools? Everyone is now Native American rather a member of their own historical group?
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OK, sure, I mistakenly applied to the term Native Americans to all pre-Columbian peoples. Grant won that absolutely pointless semantics argument and thinks its "lol"...

Do you plan on addressing the substance of my argument? Do you plan on addressing the fact that Columbus committed genocide against the indigenous peoples he encountered even going so far as to feed live children to dogs?
 
ecofarm said:
Lief's discovery was meaningless. Columbus' changed the course of history. It's not about who was first, it's about what mattered.
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America founded America. **** Columbus. He's just some dead **** with a compass.
 
KevinKohler said:
OK. So, WHO, then, is left? Can't touch the founders of this country, due to the slavery issue. Can't really put religious figures on a podium, because of the whole genocide/regicide/infanticide/war/famine/murder thing.


Basically, what we're doing here, is judging people of a different era by the mores of our current one, and that's just stupid.


I see your high horse. Why don't you hop on down and join the rest of us imperfect mortals....you know, the ones who make up ALL OF HISTORY.
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His own peers who were eyewitnesses at the time even thought what he was doing was wrong. It may come as a surprise to you, but even hundreds of years ago a lot of people thought that wholesale genocide, the torture of women and children, and feeding live children to dogs was wrong, and it goes well beyond the wrongs of the vast majority of religious figures, our founding fathers and so on. In fact, the only biblical figure I can think of that is on the same level of evil as Columbus was Moses.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
America founded America. **** Columbus. He's just some dead **** with a compass.
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The discovery of America by then-modern Europe changed the course of history. Leif's discovery was meaningless. That's why we celebrate/acknowledge the former and not the latter. It's not a race, it's about significance.
 
JC Callender said:
They weren't anywhere near as advanced as the Europeans in the 15th century, if they were then they wouldn't have gotten conquered 15 minutes after the Europeans got of the boat. And if it weren't Columbus it would've been someone else. America has excellent resources and natural borders, anyone would have loved to have this land.
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Buy the time Columbus landed more advanced cultures in the Americas had already came and went. By the time of the first recorded mention of London in 1603, Teotihuacan was the sixth largest city in the world with agriculture industry and vast trade. Teotihuacan lasted over 700 years and for most of the time everyone in the valley of Mexico lived in one city organized on a grid plan, a pattern which did not exist before or after Teotihuacan in Mexico. Permanent multi-family apartment compounds were built to house the population for the last 500 years of the city, The discovery of America is a misnomer. The arrival of the Spanish in the lands that came to be known as the Americas was an invasion not a discovery.
 
On one side we have a group that says that maybe we should not have a holiday named after a guy that committed wholesale genocide, tortured and enslaved women and children, and even fed live children to dogs.

On the other side we have a group that says but...but...tradition......
 
HenryChinaski said:
Buy the time Columbus landed more advanced cultures in the Americas had already came and went. By the time of the first recorded mention of London in 1603, Teotihuacan was the sixth largest city in the world with agriculture industry and vast trade. Teotihuacan lasted over 700 years and for most of the time everyone in the valley of Mexico lived in one city organized on a grid plan, a pattern which did not exist before or after Teotihuacan in Mexico. Permanent multi-family apartment compounds were built to house the population for the last 500 years of the city, The discovery of America is a misnomer. The arrival of the Spanish in the lands that came to be known as the Americas was an invasion not a discovery.
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We were way more advanced, that's all that counts. And what do you think would happen if Columbus didn't show up?Do you think anyone else would've wanted a piece of America? Let me put it another way, name one country that wouldn't want a piece of America?
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
On one side we have a group that says that maybe we should not have a holiday named after a guy that committed wholesale genocide, tortured and enslaved women and children, and even fed live children to dogs.

On the other side we have a group that says but...but...tradition......
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It's not really about the guy. It's about the historical importance and the changing of the course of history that occurred when America was discovered by then modern Europe. No one even knows the things you claim about Columbus.

We're not worshiping an individual, we're acknowledging the Earth changing event of America's discovery by then modern Europe.

Change the name to "America's discovery by Europe" if you like, but it's probably easier to just keep the name and accept that humans were horrible barbarians, by today's standards, back then.
 
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JC Callender said:
We were way more advanced, that's all that counts. And what do you think would happen if Columbus didn't show up?Do you think anyone else would've wanted a piece of America? Let me put it another way, name one country that wouldn't want a piece of America?
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If the invasion would've taken place say 150 years earlier, in Mexico or even if the first landing somehow would've been in the Midwest in what is now known as Cahokia, history would've turned out far differently. Columbus hit on an island with a smaller and unprepared population.
 
Chomsky said:
Odd.

With the possibly exception of St Paul, and maybe Portland, it would be hard to put together a list of major American cities that inspire less interest!
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What's your point?
 
HenryChinaski said:
Do you somehow think that the indigenous peoples oef the Americas had and recognized borders as we do today? There was no divide between what we now call the US and Canada.
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There was no "America" either, or "Native Americans". What is your point?

Isn't there something more pertinent to today's world that you can get excited about?
 
AlbqOwl said:
It was on the radio yesterday and in the Albuquerque Journal this morning that one of our city counselors is proposing changing Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoples Day. Has a nice ring to it don't you think? Not! You can't make this stuff up.
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I'm for the change. **** Columbus.
 
KevinKohler said:
OK. So, WHO, then, is left? Can't touch the founders of this country, due to the slavery issue. Can't really put religious figures on a podium, because of the whole genocide/regicide/infanticide/war/famine/murder thing.


Basically, what we're doing here, is judging people of a different era by the mores of our current one, and that's just stupid.


I see your high horse. Why don't you hop on down and join the rest of us imperfect mortals....you know, the ones who make up ALL OF HISTORY.
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What you're essentially saying that it's okay to ignore a person's atrocities because when they were around it was fine to be who they were. That's horse ****. I can understand more ambiguous things like friendly association with unsavory characters or maybe even membership in some weird organization. However, the slaughter of human beings has never been something we have commemorated at any point in history. Where are the examples of other countries celebrating the days colonization began?
 
AlbqOwl said:
I have never considered 'Columbus Day' as honoring anybody but rather acknowledging an important event in our national history. Whatever you think of the man, he had the inspiration and courage to see what was out there on the 'edge of the world' and he was the catalyst for the great migration to this nation.
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So did Leif Ericson when he did it hundreds of years prior to Columbus. And so did the Chinese even further back in history. The only thing Columbus' venture had going for it was that his history was scrolled down.
 
Hatuey said:
What you're essentially saying that it's okay to ignore a person's atrocities because when they were around it was fine to be who they were. That's horse ****. I can understand more ambiguous things like friendly association with unsavory characters or maybe even membership in some weird organization. However, the slaughter of human beings has never been something we have commemorated at any point in history. Where are the examples of other countries celebrating the days colonization began?
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Those other countries don't celebrate that because it's in PREHISTORY. New world, old world? Yeah?
 
Hatuey said:
What you're essentially saying that it's okay to ignore a person's atrocities because when they were around it was fine to be who they were. That's horse ****. I can understand more ambiguous things like friendly association with unsavory characters or maybe even membership in some weird organization. However, the slaughter of human beings has never been something we have commemorated at any point in history. Where are the examples of other countries celebrating the days colonization began?
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Oh, and you're wrong. Killing other people is instinctual. It's in our blood. The wholesale slaughter of other people is a human tradition as old as humans.
 
What YOU guys are basically saying is that you want to ignore a momentous moment in human history, because, well....the dude responsible for it was a chode smoking scum bag.


Idiotic.

ALL bright flames cast DARK shadows.


Get over it.
 
99percenter said:
We should have a day for the native americans. We owe them debt of gratitude. We took there land and they asked for nothing in return.
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"native Americans" migrated here and took the land. some of them killed other native americans and took that land too

they lost, Europeans won. Too bad. they were in no position to ask, they were conquered.
 
AlbqOwl said:
I have never considered 'Columbus Day' as honoring anybody but rather acknowledging an important event in our national history. Whatever you think of the man, he had the inspiration and courage to see what was out there on the 'edge of the world' and he was the catalyst for the great migration to this nation.
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People whining about a guy dead for 500 or so years really are nothing more than engaging in bash America and self flagellation

its fine how it is. If you really want to help native Americans, try to overcome the massive level of joblessness and alcoholism wreaking havoc on the reservations
 
Luftwaffe said:
We should make it founding father's day, because they were the ones who found America (get it!).

Anyways, lets be legit here, why the **** are we celebrating a Euro?

THIS IS AMERICA. Lets celebrate some american ****ing heroes. Lets start with a founding fathers day :cool:

No one cares about some genocidal spaniard who landed in The Carribeans.
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On my list of things to worry about, this rates right behind the trauma caused to gnats every time a delivery truck drives 25 or miles to bring a package to the average American's home
 
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