• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Mass shooting in Oregon (estimated 10 dead)[W:25]

Now this is awesome. The town that had the mass shootings doesn't even want BO peep around pushing gun control legislation. Now they should say it loud and proud and when the Peep shows up. Don't allow the Peep to lie and put him on the spot Right in front of the camera. Then we can see the Peep stutter some more. Its good optics for the rest of the planet.



Roseburg, Oregon doesn’t want Obama in their town pushing the gun control agenda. The brother of one of the shooting victims said the real problem is mental health (he’s right), and the mother of Cheyenne Fitzgerald, who was shot in the back by Chris Harper-Mercer at Umpqua, said her daughter should have been armed, and that we should all exercise our Second Amendment right for self-defense.

Banning the semi-automatic weapons means banning guns; it’s not common sense, legal, nor is it feasible. Fourth, the Boston gun buyback programs had nabbed one firearm this year.

Oh, and of course Everytown had executive action recommendations on gun control for Obama, which–again–are already law.....snip~

Hillary: Hey, I’ll Totally Bypass Congress On Gun Control If Necessary - Matt Vespa
 
MMC said:
Now this is awesome. The town that had the mass shootings doesn't even want BO peep around pushing gun control legislation. Now they should say it loud and proud and when the Peep shows up. Don't allow the Peep to lie and put him on the spot Right in front of the camera. Then we can see the Peep stutter some more. Its good optics for the rest of the planet.



Roseburg, Oregon doesn’t want Obama in their town pushing the gun control agenda. The brother of one of the shooting victims said the real problem is mental health (he’s right), and the mother of Cheyenne Fitzgerald, who was shot in the back by Chris Harper-Mercer at Umpqua, said her daughter should have been armed, and that we should all exercise our Second Amendment right for self-defense.

Banning the semi-automatic weapons means banning guns; it’s not common sense, legal, nor is it feasible. Fourth, the Boston gun buyback programs had nabbed one firearm this year.

Oh, and of course Everytown had executive action recommendations on gun control for Obama, which–again–are already law.....snip~

Hillary: Hey, I’ll Totally Bypass Congress On Gun Control If Necessary - Matt Vespa
Click to expand...



Really?

If this is true, we may be seeing a change. Oregon is where I would live if Canada didn't exist, they are salt of the earth people and apparently waaay smarter than the average Obama voting Amerikan.

I hope Obama goes there and I hope they let him know he's wrong. I hope these people press this agenda of dealing with mental illness, for your sake.
I hope they ask him to demonstrate that gun controls work and ask him why he ignores the real issue.

But then I hope Vancouver will win the Stanley Cup too.
 
Fearandloathing said:
Really?

If this is true, we may be seeing a change. Oregon is where I would live if Canada didn't exist, they are salt of the earth people and apparently waaay smarter than the average Obama voting Amerikan.

I hope Obama goes there and I hope they let him know he's wrong. I hope these people press this agenda of dealing with mental illness, for your sake.
I hope they ask him to demonstrate that gun controls work and ask him why he ignores the real issue.

But then I hope Vancouver will win the Stanley Cup too.
Click to expand...


Somebody should say.....hey fool. Now tell us what is inadequate about our law. We want specifics fool. Not your mouth full of lies. Then ask him how does it feel to appear as a fool before the nation. Give us that answer peep.
There is no reason to give this fool any respect whatsoever.
 
flogger said:
Hmmm ...... people in glass houses

The Social Contract - Underreporting of Crime




Rape Is Grossly Underreported In The U.S., Study Finds

Getting back on topic

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/25/us/25shooters.html?_r=0

Have you ever been to the UK then ? We dont have these any more :)
Click to expand...

Wow, you missed the point by a lot. The Guardian story stated that reported rapes went unreported by the police to meet quotas statistical quotas. That has nothing to do with women women not reporting their rapes to the authorities as is the case in your articles.

So in the UK you have brave women reporting rape to the authorities who then strike it from the records in order to meet quotas.

And should we delve into Rotherham? How long did those crimes avoid the stat sheet?
 
jmotivator said:
Wow, you missed the point by a lot. The Guardian story stated that reported rapes went unreported by the police to meet quotas statistical quotas. That has nothing to do with women women not reporting their rapes to the authorities as is the case in your articles.

So in the UK you have brave women reporting rape to the authorities who then strike it from the records in order to meet quotas.

And should we delve into Rotherham? How long did those crimes avoid the stat sheet?
Click to expand...

My first link fully explained how your police forces massaged your crime stats and why. Political interference in this plays at least as great a role in this in your society as it does mine

What has underreporting of rape or indeed any unrelated crime in either country have to do with the OP ?

If we are somehow underreporting our incidences of mass shootings homicide or gun killings then you might have a point (figures very susceptable to this in the US often due to local and national political considerations)

For the third time of asking. Have you ever visited our 'lawless' country because you seem to think we are all going to hell in a handbasket here when in fact the opposite is the case ? If crime was so bad the government would certainly not have reduced our police numbers by 12% since 2009. They are now at their lowest since 1975
 
Last edited:
flogger said:
My first link fully explained how your police forces massaged your crime stats and why. Political interference in this plays at least as great a role in this in your society as it does mine
Click to expand...

No, your first link is to a blog post discussing the ways that police COULD massage the crime statistics, but there is not a shred of evidence in that article that they are. Conversely the articles I have posted are of actual findings that UK police underreport crimes to meet quotas.

What has underreporting of rape or indeed any unrelated crime in either country have to do with the OP ?
Click to expand...

What does your sidetrack of UK crime statistics have to do with it? I'm just challenging your assertions that the UK is a sylvan glade of frolicking gun-free people.

If we are somehow underreporting our incidences of mass shootings homicide or gun killings then you might have a point (figures very susceptable to this in the US often due to local and national political considerations)
Click to expand...

When I stepped into a discussion with you in this thread you were talking about poverty and gun crime in Mexico. Please explain what that had to do with the OP? :roll:

For the third time of asking. Have you ever visited our 'lawless' country because you seem to think we are all going to hell in a handbasket here when in fact the opposite is the case ? If crime was so bad the government would certainly not have reduced our police numbers by 12% since 2009. They are now at their lowest since 1975
Click to expand...

I never said you were a lawless country. You couldn't have so much crime without laws!

I mean, you are asserting that America is going to hell in a handbasket. How many times have you been to the US and how many times were you caught up in a mass shooting here?

And reducing a police force isn't directly correlated to low crime in such a way that you can simply claim that a reduction in police force is evidence of low crime.
 
Last edited:
jmotivator said:
No, your first link is to a blog post discussing the ways that police COULD massage the crime statistics, but there is not a shred of evidence in that article that they are. Conversely the articles I have posted are of actual findings that UK police underreport crimes to meet quotas.
Click to expand...

Really ? Please link the official report of the findings then given its been nearly two years since these tabloid allegations were made. What are the amended figures ?

What does your sidetrack of UK crime statistics have to do with it? I'm just challenging your assertions that the UK is a sylvan glade of frolicking gun-free people.
Click to expand...

I don't know it was your diversion on post #1363 not mine

Your assertion was not lower crime
Click to expand...

My primary assertion on this entire thread has been that limiting access to firearms will greatly reduce the incidences of events such as that in the OP. This has been borne out by multiple linked international comparisons throughout that qualify that

I never said you were a lawless country. You couldn't have so much crime without laws!
Click to expand...

Due to sane firearms laws we don't have anything like yours thats the point. From my earlier link where apples are compared with apples and differing tabulation methodologies taken into account

Rape of a female is 1.02x more likely in the US, while theft of a vehicle is 1.29x more likely. More disturbingly, burglary is significantly higher at 1.52x more likely to occur in the US. However, it is at the considerably more, violent crimes that America really supersedes England and Wales into its own class. In the United States, you are 6.9x more likely to be the victim of aggravated assault resulting in serious injury than in the UK. You are 4.03x more likely to be murdered than in the UK. And more staggeringly (though not surprising) you are 35.2x more likely to be shot dead in the Unites States than in the UK.


I mean, you are asserting that America is going to hell in a handbasket. How many times have you been to the US and how many times were you caught up in a mass shooting here?
Click to expand...

I lived in Alabama for two years and there were many gun homicides in Huntsville where I lived. We dont get that much in Reading or Wokingham here :cool:

And reducing a police force isn't directly correlated to low crime in such a way that you can simply claim that a reduction in police force is evidence of low crime.
Click to expand...

So are you asserting crime here is actually rising ? If so whats your evidence beyond old tabloid sensationalist articles and opinion pieces ?
 
Last edited:
flogger said:
Really ? Please link the official report of the findings then given its been nearly two years since these tabloid allegations were made. What are the amended figures ?
Click to expand...

The Guardian is a tabloid? Are you determining that on the pejorative definition or just the page size?

Also, is an admission by a chief inspector insufficient? And two years since reporting? You seem to have a problem with math. As of 11 months ago the number of unreported crimes was estimated at 800,000 per year in your tiny country.

I don't know it was your diversion on post #1363 not mine
Click to expand...

My original response was to your post on Mexican poverty and gun crimes in Mexico. I see that you mysteriously chose to edit out that part of my last post. I wonder why?

My primary assertion on this entire thread has been that limiting access to firearms will greatly reduce the incidences of events such as that in the OP. This has been borne out by multiple linked international comparisons throughout that qualify that


Due to sane firearms laws we don't have anything like yours thats the point. From my earlier link where apples are compared with apples and differing tabulation methodologies taken into account

Rape of a female is 1.02x more likely in the US, while theft of a vehicle is 1.29x more likely. More disturbingly, burglary is significantly higher at 1.52x more likely to occur in the US. However, it is at the considerably more, violent crimes that America really supersedes England and Wales into its own class. In the United States, you are 6.9x more likely to be the victim of aggravated assault resulting in serious injury than in the UK. You are 4.03x more likely to be murdered than in the UK. And more staggeringly (though not surprising) you are 35.2x more likely to be shot dead in the Unites States than in the UK.
Click to expand...

You have quoted statistics without a source that run contrary to the statistics I sited with sources. Do you have a source that isn't collected by people trying to meet quotas?

I lived in Alabama for two years and there were many gun homicides in Huntsville where I lived. We dont get that much in Reading or Wokingham here.
Click to expand...

"Many gun homicides" how many would that be? If you want to make quantitative statements you need to provide evidence. Also, would you live in Manchester City? If someone from the US lived to a while in Manchester City would you say that is a fair assessment on what life in the UK is like?

On that note, going back to your attempt to correlate crime rate and cutting the police force, it seems you hadn't taken UK austerity into account.

So are you asserting crime here is actually rising ? If so whats your evidence beyond old tabloid sensationalist articles and opinion pieces ?
Click to expand...

Nope, I am saying that the statistics you are using to make your assertions are highly questionable.
 
jmotivator said:
The Guardian is a tabloid? Are you determining that on the pejorative definition or just the page size?

Also, is an admission by a chief inspector insufficient? And two years since reporting? You seem to have a problem with math. As of 11 months ago the number of unreported crimes was estimated at 800,000 per year in your tiny country.
Click to expand...

Or he could simply have been trying to safeguard his officers jobs in light of these falling crime figures. 15,000 officers lost since 2010 and a further 22,000 to come. I doubt our government is much of a fan of having anarchy reign on our streets and our economy is in considerably better shape than it was the last time the police numbers were this low

My original response was to your post on Mexican poverty and gun crimes in Mexico. I see that you mysteriously chose to edit out that part of my last post. I wonder why?
Click to expand...
You introduced 13 year old comparative crime stats into this discussion and I responded to them. They are certainly not relevent to the discussion on the mass shootings in the USA today

You have quoted statistics without a source that run contrary to the statistics I sited with sources. Do you have a source that isn't collected by people trying to meet quotas?
Click to expand...
So you don't have that link to the subsequent report on these alleged falsifications and the amended figures as a consequence of it then ? Such a report would certainly be in the public domain here if it really existed

"Many gun homicides" how many would that be? If you want to make quantitative statements you need to provide evidence. Also, would you live in Manchester City? If someone from the US lived to a while in Manchester City would you say that is a fair assessment on what life in the UK is like?
Click to expand...

I've been all over the US and there aren't many states I haven't visited. I dont know what Huntsvilles crime stats were when I was there but I'm sure they would have been considerably worse than Manchesters even before our gun ban. You don't tend to hear gunfire at night in Manchester after all

On that note, going back to your attempt to correlate crime rate and cutting the police force, it seems you hadn't taken UK austerity into account.
Click to expand...

So where is your evidence that our crime has risen and not fallen as a consequence ? And why do you keep diverting away from the OP which has nothing to do with the UK ? Our unemployment is at an 8 year low and our growth rate at an 8 year high so the austerity factor is a bit of a myth frankly

Nope, I am saying that the statistics you are using to make your assertions are highly questionable.
Click to expand...

At least I do actually have some on which to base my assertions . As you were already shown your own forces manipulate the recording of offences to a far greater degree than ours do. Particularly when it comes to the most serious offences

Fudge factor: Cooking the books on crime stats
 
Last edited:
flogger said:
Or he could simply have been trying to safeguard his officers jobs in light of these falling crime figures. 15,000 officers lost since 2010 and a further 22,000 to come. I doubt our government is much of a fan of having anarchy reign on our streets
Click to expand...

HAHAH!! On the one hand you want to claim that cutting police jobs is related to low crime, on the other hand cutting police jobs is a move towards anarchy? :roll:

You introduced 13 year old comparative the UK/US crime stats into this discussion and I responded to them. They are certainly not relevant to the discussion on the mass shootings in the USA
Click to expand...

I introduced a study comparing crime statistics between the US and UK which are relevant to your argument that the UK crime rates are lower for the lack of guns. Was the problem too many guns in the UK back in 2002?

Do you have that link to the subsequent report on these falsifications and the amended figures as a consequence of it ? Thought not :roll:
Click to expand...

I don't need that to call your source into doubt, Flogger. This is like the old story of the NHS passing a rule that no patient can sit in the emergency room for more than three hours ... so hospitals were found leaving patients in the ambulances to meet quota.

The discovery by multiple sources that UK under reported crime statistics is irrefutable. Whether the same crooked government actually cleaned up their act and corrected the official record has no bearing. If we only counted crimes where the criminal admitted guilt out numbers would be quite low indeed!

I've been all over the US and there aren't many states I haven't visited. I dont know what Huntsvilles crime stats were when I was there but I'm sure they would have been considerably more than Manchesters even before our gun ban
Click to expand...

Google is your friend. You can certainly present research to back your claim.

So where is your evidence that our crime has risen and not fallen as a consequence ? And why do you keep diverting away from the OP which has nothing to do with the UK ? Our unemployment is at an 8 year low and our growth rate at an 8 year high so the austerity factor is a bit of a myth frankly
Click to expand...

Hah!(again) Damn the unrefuted evidence, you stand by your admittedly manipulated statistics! You dismiss sited facts as "myth" without a valid counter argument.

At least I do actually have some on which to base my assertions on. As you were already shown your own forces manipulate the recording of offences to a far greater degree than ours do. Particularly when it comes to the most serious offences
Click to expand...

You haven't actually posted anything of the sort. You post statistics and then refuse evidence and witness accounts that the data is rigged. You aren't so much mounting a counter argument as you are sticking your head in the sand.

Fudge factor: Cooking the books on crime stats
Click to expand...

And here is the problem with your evidence: On the one hand it shows what happens when a police force is graded on quotas (they fudge the data) but on the other hand you have only provided evidence that the issue in the US is isolated versus the UK where teh issue is a top down problem across the country.

I mean, you could argue that a finding of corruption in a major US city or region is of the same scale as the UK corruption, but that isn't really a comparison of the UK versus US and does nothing to support your attempts to make valid comparisons when the statistical data is fudged, or make a logical claim that you can discern any useful info from manipulated UK statistics.
 
jmotivator said:
HAHAH!! On the one hand you want to claim that cutting police jobs is related to low crime, on the other hand cutting police jobs is a move towards anarchy? :roll:
Click to expand...

No that is simply how you misread it

I introduced a study comparing crime statistics between the US and UK which are relevant to your argument that the UK crime rates are lower for the lack of guns. Was the problem too many guns in the UK back in 2002?
Click to expand...

And I countered it showing more recent comparative figures when the differing tabulation methods were taken into account

I don't need that to call your source into doubt, Flogger. This is like the old story of the NHS passing a rule that no patient can sit in the emergency room for more than three hours ... so hospitals were found leaving patients in the ambulances to meet quota.
Click to expand...
This is starting to deflect into the wild blue yonder now. What has the NHS to do with the OP ? :shock:

The discovery by multiple sources that UK under reported crime statistics is irrefutable.
Click to expand...

Until actual evidence is presented that shows this then of course its not irrefutable. Where are the figures ?

Whether the same crooked government actually cleaned up their act and corrected the official record has no bearing. If we only counted crimes where the criminal admitted guilt out numbers would be quite low indeed!
Click to expand...

Really ? So why is your murder rate and prison population five times higher per capita than ours ?

Hah!(again) Damn the unrefuted evidence, you stand by your admittedly manipulated statistics! You dismiss sited facts as "myth" without a valid counter argument.
Click to expand...
Opinion and hearsay is not evidence

You haven't actually posted anything of the sort. You post statistics and then refuse evidence and witness accounts that the data is rigged. You aren't so much mounting a counter argument as you are sticking your head in the sand.
Click to expand...

Until solid evidence is presented that quantifies the alleged distortion then its all just hearsay. I think after nearly two years we would have been presented with that by now

And here is the problem with your evidence: On the one hand it shows what happens when a police force is graded on quotas (they fudge the data) but on the other hand you have only provided evidence that the issue in the US is isolated versus the UK where teh issue is a top down problem across the country.
Click to expand...
So now that it has supposedly been outed why has nobody been subsequently charged or disciplined and why have no corrections been made ? Trust me this would be big news here if it had

I mean, you could argue that a finding of corruption in a major US city or region is of the same scale as the UK corruption, but that isn't really a comparison of the UK versus US and does nothing to support your attempts to make valid comparisons when the statistical data is fudged, or make a logical claim that you can discern any useful info from manipulated UK statistics.
Click to expand...

Why are you continuing with this diversion ? Whats your end game here given this has no bearing whatsoever on the topic at hand ? Why not just start a thread on it ?
 
Last edited:
flogger said:
No that is simply how you misread it
Click to expand...

You are making arguments using the "trust me" citation that runs contrary to the cited news stories. When you are arguing as illogically as you are you leave your writing open to broad interpretation.

the authorities chalk up the cuts to austerity, you have offered no alternative beyond your own baseless assertion.

I mean, using your logic, the police are government is under reporting crime statistics so that they can cut the police force. If that were their goal you would be evidence of its effectiveness.

And I countered it showing more recent comparative figures when the differing tabulation methods were taken into account
Click to expand...

You've offered other comparative figured derived before the UK government was caught fudging the numbers. They were caught in 2014, your data is from 2011 to 2013. I see no reason to take your numbers as valid.

This is starting to deflect into the wild blue yonder now. What has the NHS to do with the OP ? :shock:
Click to expand...

It's a corollary to the stories of the UK police purposely manipulating statistics to meet quotas.

Until actual evidence is presented that shows this then of course its not irrefutable. Where are the figures ?
Click to expand...

The figures are in the articles. It does say something about your due diligence, though, that in the face of the long expose with witness accounts you are still willing to just accept the data without question.

The logical conclusion to the puzzle of why UK citizens perceive crime to me rising while the statistics are showing a decline combined with the story that the UK police are artificially lowering crime statistics to meet quotas is that it would seem there might be something to the experiences of UK citizens. The corrupt data certainly can't be used as a valid counter to first hand experience.


(continued)
 
jmotivator said:
You are making arguments using the "trust me" citation that runs contrary to the cited news stories. When you are arguing as illogically as you are you leave your writing open to broad interpretation.

the authorities chalk up the cuts to austerity, you have offered no alternative beyond your own baseless assertion.

I mean, using your logic, the police are government is under reporting crime statistics so that they can cut the police force. If that were their goal you would be evidence of its effectiveness.



You've offered other comparative figured derived before the UK government was caught fudging the numbers. They were caught in 2014, your data is from 2011 to 2013. I see no reason to take your numbers as valid.



It's a corollary to the stories of the UK police purposely manipulating statistics to meet quotas.



The figures are in the articles. It does say something about your due diligence, though, that in the face of the long expose with witness accounts you are still willing to just accept the data without question.

The logical conclusion to the puzzle of why UK citizens perceive crime to me rising while the statistics are showing a decline combined with the story that the UK police are artificially lowering crime statistics to meet quotas is that it would seem there might be something to the experiences of UK citizens. The corrupt data certainly can't be used as a valid counter to first hand experience.


(continued)
Click to expand...

We'll just have to agree to disagree then given we are so far off topic now.

Like I said start a thread on this elsewhere if you are inclined to continue with this :)
 
flogger said:
Really ? So why is your murder rate and prison population five times higher per capita than ours ?
Click to expand...

Because of the rampant illegal drug trade in the US. Do you think that the drug trade would end with a ban on guns? :roll:

Hell, do you think the GUN trade would end with a ban on guns?

It also helps that the UK has a very homogenous culture surrounded by a huge moat and very strict immigration policy.

There are a number of US states (Vermont, North Dakota, Iowa, Idaho, Maine, Utah and Wyoming) that all had gun ownership above 40% and a gun murder rate per 100k of less than 1.0 just like the UK. Does that mean that your simplistic attribution of UK murder rates need some rethinking? I'd say absolutely.

Opinion and hearsay is not evidence
Click to expand...

Then you should stop using it.

Until solid evidence is presented that quantifies the alleged distortion then its all just hearsay. I think after nearly two years we would have been presented with that by now
Click to expand...

I've already given you that. A statistical analysis of UK crime records showed that 800,000 crimes go unreported annually to the national record. Are you waiting for a time machine?

So now that it has supposedly been outed why has nobody been subsequently charged or disciplined and why have no corrections been made ? Trust me this would be big news here if it had
Click to expand...

Why should I trust you on anything? I think it is the height of naivete that you base your conclusion on whether or not the UK government disciplined itself. :roll:

"Yeah, but if rapes were REALLY being under reported then where are all the rapists who would be turning themselves in?!"

Why are you continuing with this diversion ? Whats your end game here given this has no bearing whatsoever on the topic at hand ? Why not just start a thread on it ?
Click to expand...

Like I have pointed out, I entered this thread to counter your diversion on Mexican poverty and gun crime. I'm riding your wave. If you want it to stop then stop.
 
flogger said:
We'll just have to agree to disagree then given we are so far off topic now.

Like I said start a thread on this elsewhere if you are inclined to continue with this :)
Click to expand...

That's fine. No harm, no foul. We'll be on the same side of an argument soon enough. :)
 
jmotivator said:
Like I have pointed out, I entered this thread to counter your diversion on Mexican poverty and gun crime. I'm riding your wave. If you want it to stop then stop.
Click to expand...

If you go back and check you will find I was responding to someone else who had introduced Mexico into the thread. I myself did not

Mexico too is completely irrelevent to the topic at hand
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom