• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

GOP opponents of nuclear deal couldn't find Iran on a map, says Rouhani

Israel's nuclear arsenal no more needs to be kept "in check" than this country's does. The notion that either Israel or the United States would ever use a nuclear weapon against any nation, barring a serious threat by that nation to its existence, is laughable. You are trying to make excuses for Islamic jihadist murderers who are up to no good.



That assertion is silly. The threat of a nuclear counterattack works only against nations that would use aircraft or missiles in a nuclear attack, because it is easy to trace those weapons back to their source. The threat is hollow against a nation that planned to us terrorists to deliver a nuclear weapon, because there would be no way to know where to direct a counterattack.

The explosion would leave no evidence as to who was behind the attack, or at least none strong enough to justify the awful risk of targeting and killing hundreds of thousands of people in a country that had nothing to do with it. Even a strong suspicion would not be enough for the leader of a civilized nation to act on, where the action would be so drastic.

Iran has a very large proxy force of terrorists in Hizballah, and a bomb might be hidden in a freighter, yacht, or truck and taken by a crew of them to blow up a city in Israel, in the U.S., or in some other nation. Especially if the crew were suicides, it's extremely unlikely that anyone would ever have more than a guess as to who had supplied the bomb. That is what makes nuclear terrorism such a threat--it presents the possibility of using an atom bomb against a nation and getting away with it.

Nobody's nuclear arsenal needs to be kept "in check." That doesn't mean it's a problem to have Israel and the nearby Muslims finally achieve some sort of a balance of power. At least not for people who are harbor no bigotry against Muslims.

Again, this sounds like fear-mongering/paranoia. I don't think it's all that easy to sneak nukes around- the cold war would have gone quite differently. This is the same nonsense that tried to justify the invasion of Iraq. It's a story that's only fitting for the fiction section.
 
From the Iranian point of view, the US has been a long running bellicose enemy.

**** their ****ing point of view. Let them take it and stuff it right up their jacks--sideways. And the same for their fifth columnists.
 
Nobody's nuclear arsenal needs to be kept "in check." That doesn't mean it's a problem to have Israel and the nearby Muslims finally achieve some sort of a balance of power.

**** the "balance of power." I don't want any nation that is hostile to this country or its allies to be holding anything but the short end of the stick.

At least not for people who are harbor no bigotry against Muslims.

In my experience, most of the people who defend Jew-hating Islamist curs harbor bigotry against Jews themselves. Israel-hating is common among pseudo-liberals. The lying commie bastard who is currently disgracing the White House is a good example--he has shown his anti-Semitism time and again.

Again, this sounds like fear-mongering/paranoia.

The hell you say. I say what people with your views are peddling sounds like lily-livered appeasement of evil, dressed up to appear high-toned, full of nuance, and ever-so reasonable.
 
**** the "balance of power." I don't want any nation that is hostile to this country or its allies to be holding anything but the short end of the stick.

In my experience, most of the people who defend Jew-hating Islamist curs harbor bigotry against Jews themselves. Israel-hating is common among pseudo-liberals. The lying commie bastard who is currently disgracing the White House is a good example--he has shown his anti-Semitism time and again.

The hell you say. I say what people with your views are peddling sounds like lily-livered appeasement of evil, dressed up to appear high-toned, full of nuance, and ever-so reasonable.

Okay, then you can start by disarming North Korea. Or do you only care when your politicians tell you to ?

I don't really care if you think i'm anti-semitic simply because i don't harbor prejudice for Muslims. That doesn't sound like my problem, at all.

Indifference is completely different than appeasement. Or are you suggesting that we fully approve of everything that we refuse to intervene on ?
 
**** their ****ing point of view. Let them take it and stuff it right up their jacks--sideways. And the same for their fifth columnists.

Not much of a rebuttal, but this is illustrative of extremist attitudes from the far right. It's why more informed and mature qualities are needed in international relations, such as we have seen with the Iran nuclear deal.
 
Not much of a rebuttal, but this is illustrative of extremist attitudes from the far right. It's why more informed and mature qualities are needed in international relations, such as we have seen with the Iran nuclear deal.

I suppose that to some, the craven urge to appease and abet Islamic jihadists that is so common among extremists on the far left is an informed and mature quality. B. Hussein Obama, the Marxist who pushed for this disgraceful and extremely dangerous agreement, is their darling for good reason. They dislike both Israel and the United States just like he does. I urge everyone to read Andy McCarthy's fine book, "The Grand Jihad: How Islam and the Left Sabotage America."
 
I suppose that to some, the craven urge to appease and abet Islamic jihadists that is so common among extremists on the far left is an informed and mature quality. B. Hussein Obama, the Marxist who pushed for this disgraceful and extremely dangerous agreement, is their darling for good reason. They dislike both Israel and the United States just like he does. I urge everyone to read Andy McCarthy's fine book, "The Grand Jihad: How Islam and the Left Sabotage America."

Again, please explain to me how you equivocate non-involvement to appeasement. Are you a real lawyer ? It bewilders belief.

I like Israel, but that doesn't mean i want to spend another $2 trillion and 4,500 American lives to wage a war of aggression as a pre-emptive strike to "protect" Israel.
 
Translation: Democrats are our little bitches, and we love them.
 
Again, please explain to me how you equivocate non-involvement to appeasement. Are you a real lawyer ? It bewilders belief.

I like Israel, but that doesn't mean i want to spend another $2 trillion and 4,500 American lives to wage a war of aggression as a pre-emptive strike to "protect" Israel.

The only one of us who is equivocating is you. You are trying to distinguish between not getting involved and appeasing, but in some cases--and this is one of them--the two amount to the same thing. The best-known example of appeasement is probably the agreement by Britain and France in 1938 to sacrifice Czechoslovakia to Hitler in the vain hope of buying peace. Someone who wanted to excuse that policy, which was followed in less than a year by the outbreak of full-scale war it was supposed to avert, could just as accurately call it "non-involvement" as "appeasement."

The same is true with the Islamist regime in Tehran. But instead of being inspired by dreams of racial supremacy as the Nazis were, the Khomeinists' goal is religious supremacy. Their regime is no less murderous, anti-Semitic, or anti-American than it was 36 years ago when Khomeini, himself a murdering, Jew-hating jihadist, established it. It has the blood of thousands of American civilians and servicemen on its hands--a fact its defenders conveniently ignore.

Just the anti-tank mines Iran supplied to terrorists in Iraq and trained them to use killed at least 500 American servicemen and seriously injured hundreds more. In 2007, Iranian operatives planned an attack in Karbala in which Iraqis under their control, wearing U.S. uniforms and speaking English, burst into a meeting and seized four U.S. soldiers. Later that day, they murdered these men while they were still handcuffed together. Those were war crimes. So were the 1992 bombing of the Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires and the bombings of two Jewish centers there two years later, both directed by Iran, which killed a total of 114 people. So was the bombing at the Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia, which killed 19 U.S. airmen. A long series of terrorist attacks in other places by Hizballah and other Iranian-controlled terrorist groups has killed many hundreds more American civilians.

These are the jihadist bastards you would allow to get nuclear weapons, a few of which they might well make available to fanatic Hizballah suicide squads. Maybe you are taken in by the fact some of them wear western suits, speak good English, and know how to smile and be gracious at diplomatic cocktail parties. I am not.

Your gross exaggeration of the costs of a pre-emptive strike to disarm Iran, which apparently applies numbers taken from a decade-long ground war in Iraq, cannot be taken seriously. It is false and silly, cooked up as a flimsy excuse for doing nothing. There are only five facilities that would need to be destroyed to put paid to Iran's nuclear weapons program--the uranium enrichment centrifuge galleries at Natanz and Fordow; the reactor station at Bushehr; the heavy water/future plutonium production facility at Arak; and the uranium conversion plant at Isfahan. They are all quite vulnerable to heavy guided bombs, and it would not take very many.

Reliable, objective studies like Anthony Cordesman's estimate, for example, that as few as four 2,000-lb. bombs placed on vital parts of the Arak facility would ruin it beyond repair. Two tactical aircraft could do that job in a single strike. And we know that the earth and concrete covering the two large galleries at Natanz would easily be penetrated by the 30,000 lb. bomb. One of two on top of each structure--two to four B-2's, in a single strike one night--would make junk of the thousands of centrifuges at the site. Tests of this very powerful bomb have shown a few of them would reliably destroy even the deeply buried gallery at Fordow.

What the proponents of "non-involvement" ignore is that Israel, justifiably having no faith at all in the anti-Semitic Barack Obama, may yet become convinced that a nuclear-armed Iran is a threat to its existence too serious to tolerate. Israel, though, does not have either the 30,000 lb. bomb or any aircraft that could carry it, and yet an attack that left Fordow intact would probably not be very effective. The only weapon Israel has that could make sure of that vital facility is a nuclear bomb delivered by ballistic missile. However unthinkable it may seem to us to use a weapon like that to disarm Iran, I am sure it would not be unthinkable to Israelis if they believed their nation's existence depended on it. Because a nuclear weapon used that way would have to be set off at ground level, the enormous volume of irradiated soil sent into the air would be sure to kill a great many people living downwind, as it came back down as "fallout."
 
Last edited:
The only one of us who is equivocating is you. You are trying to distinguish between not getting involved and appeasing, but in some cases--and this is one of them--the two amount to the same thing. The best-known example of appeasement is probably the agreement by Britain and France in 1938 to sacrifice Czechoslovakia to Hitler in the vain hope of buying peace. Someone who wanted to excuse that policy, which was followed in less than a year by the outbreak of full-scale war it was supposed to avert, could just as accurately call it "non-involvement" as "appeasement."

The same is true with the Islamist regime in Tehran. But instead of being inspired by dreams of racial supremacy as the Nazis were, the Khomeinists' goal is religious supremacy. Their regime is no less murderous, anti-Semitic, or anti-American than it was 36 years ago when Khomeini, himself a murdering, Jew-hating jihadist, established it. It has the blood of thousands of American civilians and servicemen on its hands--a fact its defenders conveniently ignore.

Just the anti-tank mines Iran supplied to terrorists in Iraq and trained them to use killed at least 500 American servicemen and seriously injured hundreds more. In 2007, Iranian operatives planned an attack in Karbala in which Iraqis under their control, wearing U.S. uniforms and speaking English, burst into a meeting and seized four U.S. soldiers. Later that day, they murdered these men while they were still handcuffed together. Those were war crimes. So were the 1992 bombing of the Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires and the bombings of two Jewish centers there two years later, both directed by Iran, which killed a total of 114 people. So was the bombing at the Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia, which killed 19 U.S. airmen. A long series of terrorist attacks in other places by Hizballah and other Iranian-controlled terrorist groups has killed many hundreds more American civilians.

These are the jihadist bastards you would allow to get nuclear weapons, a few of which they might well make available to fanatic Hizballah suicide squads. Maybe you are taken in by the fact some of them wear western suits, speak good English, and know how to smile and be gracious at diplomatic cocktail parties. I am not.

Your gross exaggeration of the costs of a pre-emptive strike to disarm Iran, which apparently applies numbers taken from a decade-long ground war in Iraq, cannot be taken seriously. It is false and silly, cooked up as a flimsy excuse for doing nothing. There are only five facilities that would need to be destroyed to put paid to Iran's nuclear weapons program--the uranium enrichment centrifuge galleries at Natanz and Fordow; the reactor station at Bushehr; the heavy water/future plutonium production facility at Arak; and the uranium conversion plant at Isfahan. They are all quite vulnerable to heavy guided bombs, and it would not take very many.

Reliable, objective studies like Anthony Cordesman's estimate, for example, that as few as four 2,000-lb. bombs placed on vital parts of the Arak facility would ruin it beyond repair. Two tactical aircraft could do that job in a single strike. And we know that the earth and concrete covering the two large galleries at Natanz would easily be penetrated by the 30,000 lb. bomb. One of two on top of each structure--two to four B-2's, in a single strike one night--would make junk of the thousands of centrifuges at the site. Tests of this very powerful bomb have shown a few of them would reliably destroy even the deeply buried gallery at Fordow.

What the proponents of "non-involvement" ignore is that Israel, justifiably having no faith at all in the anti-Semitic Barack Obama, may yet become convinced that a nuclear-armed Iran is a threat to its existence too serious to tolerate. Israel, though, does not have either the 30,000 lb. bomb or any aircraft that could carry it, and yet an attack that left Fordow intact would probably not be very effective. The only weapon Israel has that could make sure of that vital facility is a nuclear bomb delivered by ballistic missile. However unthinkable it may seem to us to use a weapon like that to disarm Iran, I am sure it would not be unthinkable to Israelis if they believed their nation's existence depended on it. Because a nuclear weapon used that way would have to be set off at ground level, the enormous volume of irradiated soil sent into the air would be sure to kill a great many people living downwind, as it came back down as "fallout."

Oh, wow what a read.

Your justification for war is because, hey, if we don't, our friends the Israeli's will nuke them.

That sounds like a terrible reason.
 
Oh, wow what a read.

Your justification for war is because, hey, if we don't, our friends the Israeli's will nuke them.

That sounds like a terrible reason.

I am glad you enjoy reading well-reasoned arguments. I'm sure you are not exposed to them very often in your circles.
 
I am glad you enjoy reading well-reasoned arguments. I'm sure you are not exposed to them very often in your circles.

That wasn't a well-reasoned argument.

That wasn't even a well-reasoned stream of consciousness.
 
Of course it is part of the "Great Game" by Iranian President Rouhani but his comments about the lack of knowledge found in so many GOP politicians does bring to the front something I have also found in my international travels - people in other nations generally think that most Americans know little of the world outside of the USA. One might think that geographic ignorance is a basic trait for some folks.

This coming from one of the most closed off countries in the world.

But I thought the important part of the interview was the following in response to Republican threats to "rip to shreds" the international agreement which the US and 5 other nations negotiated with Iran.

This is not a treaty this is another one of Obama's over reaches of power.

So - if a Republican is elected as President in 2016, could that person actually ignore the international agreement without wide-ranging repercussions? Do Republicans believe they can force the five other nations, and Iran, to ignore a deal that took several years to create? What would be the consequences?

Yes the next president if they wished could undo Obama's EO. this is not a treaty. a treaty has to be ratified by the congress.
this agreement is not worth anything.

the next president is at his own discretion whether or not he honors it.
 
So - if a Republican is elected as President in 2016, could that person actually ignore the international agreement without wide-ranging repercussions? Do Republicans believe they can force the five other nations, and Iran, to ignore a deal that took several years to create? What would be the consequences?

And here I thought Mrs. Clinton was a sure thing! But if we do have a Republican President, of course that person can ignore Limpwrist's agreement. Even if it were a treaty, which it is not, it could be abrogated. I am far less concerned with what repercussions might be caused by ignoring it than I am with the ones that will certainly be caused by observing it.

I don't give a damn who took how long to create this disgraceful monument to the appeasement of evil. Any other nation involved, except Iran, is free to ignore it, or not. I hope the next President will make clear to the jihadist murderers in Tehran that this country will make very certain they never get atom bombs, and that if necessary, we will rely on far stronger means than pieces of paper to do it.
 
The only one of us who is equivocating is you. You are trying to distinguish between not getting involved and appeasing, but in some cases--and this is one of them--the two amount to the same thing. The best-known example of appeasement is probably the agreement by Britain and France in 1938 to sacrifice Czechoslovakia to Hitler in the vain hope of buying peace. Someone who wanted to excuse that policy, which was followed in less than a year by the outbreak of full-scale war it was supposed to avert, could just as accurately call it "non-involvement" as "appeasement."

The same is true with the Islamist regime in Tehran. But instead of being inspired by dreams of racial supremacy as the Nazis were, the Khomeinists' goal is religious supremacy. Their regime is no less murderous, anti-Semitic, or anti-American than it was 36 years ago when Khomeini, himself a murdering, Jew-hating jihadist, established it. It has the blood of thousands of American civilians and servicemen on its hands--a fact its defenders conveniently ignore..................


.......................What the proponents of "non-involvement" ignore is that Israel, justifiably having no faith at all in the anti-Semitic Barack Obama, may yet become convinced that a nuclear-armed Iran is a threat to its existence too serious to tolerate. Israel, though, does not have either the 30,000 lb. bomb or any aircraft that could carry it, and yet an attack that left Fordow intact would probably not be very effective. The only weapon Israel has that could make sure of that vital facility is a nuclear bomb delivered by ballistic missile. However unthinkable it may seem to us to use a weapon like that to disarm Iran, I am sure it would not be unthinkable to Israelis if they believed their nation's existence depended on it. Because a nuclear weapon used that way would have to be set off at ground level, the enormous volume of irradiated soil sent into the air would be sure to kill a great many people living downwind, as it came back down as "fallout."

It would seem to me that one of the biggest problems the uber-right in America has is in reading, and in comprehending history. Your example of Munich, for a small example, does not apply. In 1938, the world had just seen the biggest, and most bloodthirsty cataclysm ever witnessed. Those with any sort of sense of humanity or rationality wanted to head off another such episode, if possible. Could they have done it? Yes, maybe, by invading Germany at that point, and taking on a nation still smarting and resentful, and full of animosity and angst. An invasion of Germany in 1938 would have produced, most likely, a mini WW2 at best, a horrible protracted conflict at worst. Those in power took the high road, and ramped up defense preparations. By 1939 Britain, for example, was outdoing Germany in critical areas, such as aircraft production, and radar technology. So much for your appeasement. This has nothing to do with Iran today, a country on the ropes, and probably due for another revolution, by its young people tired of religious dogma.

.
 
Are the Iranian leadership people bastards? Yes they are. How may other nations could we apply this appellation to? In particular to this argument, Pakistan and N Korea. Both are (already) nuclear armed, both as unstable and precipitous as any nation could possibly be. N Korea has demonstrated its desire for (if it suits) destruction and chaos, I think I could say with little despute. Pakistan, though a nominal ally, is fractured by competing internal interests, corrupt in many areas, and probably has much less control of their nukes than they pretend to have. Some say the intelligence services there actually run the country, which may be true. In neither case has the US tried to exert control over the nuclear weapons programs, at least to the extent that it may be effective. And really the ball doesn't just drop there.

Saudi Arabia has, reportedly, negotiated with Pakistan for a nuclear weapon, which would be bought at a generous price (most needed in the dysfunctional road warrior society in Pakistan). Other such arrangements are also in progess. You like to focus on the culpability of Iran, and they have liability here, not doubting, but you, as a true conservative, find it hard to see the big picture.

What is the big picture? Well, it might go like this. The nuclear genie is out of the bottle. This image of John Wayne leading in the B-2's to take out all opposition just isn't going to work any more. Iran tomorrow is not OK? Then how about Saudi Arabia the next day? How about Japan? They have every incentive. How about Russia passing nukes to Iran? How about China negotiating with target jurisdictions when it is beneficial to them? Your going to bomb them all?

Your estimate strategic bombing also ignores history. In WW2, Germany was bombed for five years, quite drastically towards the end, but still managed to keep up defense production, by way of dispersal and hardening. Even at the end of the war, Germany was producing, for example, jet aircraft, a revelation at the time, and doing it under constant bombardment.

Yet you know all about this, and exactly how all the chips will fall. I say: do your reading first, and then get back to us
 
Back
Top Bottom