Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail[W:228]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

sawdust said:

So sayeth the world according to you. Don't get me wrong, I'm not on her side. I just understand that the same right that allows her to oppose gay marriage is the right that I have to believe in the big bang and natural selection. I believe there is a proper coarse of action for this dilemma. She has the religious right to oppose gay marriage and she has the legal right to continue to work as clerk of court, at least until she is impeached, found unworthy and removed by representatives of the same people who voted her into her position.

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this I think is key. She has the right to continue work as a clerk of the court . Doesn't that imply then that she has to actually DO the work?

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

sawdust said:

Christ all mighty. You said she had tow options and I've consistently said that the only ethical solution to this dilemma is impeachment. Her choice isn't just to do her job or quit.

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Ethically, she has two options. Impeachment isn't one of her choices, but rather something mandated upon her. It would be the consequence of her continuing to unethically choose not to do her job as she agreed to do it, impartially.

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

sawdust said:

She was sent to jail because that was believed by some to be the quickest way to get her out of the way. As it turns out, she filed an appeal today hoping to stop the county from filing any marriage licenses to any couple gay or straight. The judge who sent her to jail will be forced with a difficult decision Monday when she goes back to work because he's turned an administrative problem into a crusade.

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It isn't a difficult decision at all for him. If she decides on Monday to try to stop the issuance of marriage licenses in the office of the county clerk, she will be sent back to jail for contempt of court, possibly on actual charges beyond that. Its not a crusade at all. It is one person, granted with the support of others, but in reality not all that many, who is refusing to do her job impartially, as she agreed to do it when she took the office. She is the one trying to make this into a religious crusade, not the judge or anyone else insisting that she simply uphold her oath and do her job.

And that appeal is pointless, and legally garbage. It has already been pointed out why.

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

opendebate said:

this I think is key. She has the right to continue work as a clerk of the court . Doesn't that imply then that she has to actually DO the work?

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The clerk of court does more than marriage licenses. Her moral dilemma remains.

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

sawdust said:

She was sent to jail because that was believed by some to be the quickest way to get her out of the way. As it turns out, she filed an appeal today hoping to stop the county from filing any marriage licenses to any couple gay or straight. The judge who sent her to jail will be forced with a difficult decision Monday when she goes back to work because he's turned an administrative problem into a crusade.

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And her appeal went to the 6th Circuit Court, the Circuit Court that received her previous appeal to have the Rowan County Clerks Office not issue any Marriage Licenses.

Why do you thing after rejecting the previous stay request to be allowed not to have to issue any licenses do you think the 6th Circuit will issue a stay this time to allow her to order the office not to issue any licenses?


BTW - after the first request to the 6th Circuit the request to shut down marriage license operation went to the Unite States Supreme Court who also denied her request.



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Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

sawdust said:

So sayeth the world according to you. Don't get me wrong, I'm not on her side. I just understand that the same right that allows her to oppose gay marriage is the right that I have to believe in the big bang and natural selection. I believe there is a proper coarse of action for this dilemma. She has the religious right to oppose gay marriage and she has the legal right to continue to work as clerk of court, at least until she is impeached, found unworthy and removed by representatives of the same people who voted her into her position.

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No one has the legal right to disobey a judge's order just because they hold a position within government.

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

sawdust said:

The clerk of court does more than marriage licenses. Her moral dilemma remains.

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Too bad for her. Her moral dilemma is her personal problem, not that of the court.

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

sawdust said:

I don't believe that what you said is accurate. The Kentucky State legislature isn't in session. I would believe that they would take up impeachment when they return. What you want and who you want to call names is meaningless. I believe that injustice has to be dealt with in an orderly and just process. Sending a christian woman to jail because she doesn't see the world the same way you do is neither orderly or just. She was elected by her constituents and deserves to be impeached by the representatives of her state.

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Personally, I don't care what Kentucky or Rowan County does. I have no plans ever to reside in either. I do support Kentucky handling the matter as Kentucky wants to handle it. But that is not where religious activists want it to stop.

I am opposed to religion being involved in government. I don't want her religion or your religion or my religion involved in government at any level. I believe you disagree. I believe you would like to see your brand of religion involved in government.

I do believe that a comparatively small, extremely conservative number of religionists are, among other things, using hapless people such as Davis to worm their way into government to attempt to establish precedence. Davis has proven to be a fine useful idiot. At first I believed that her Messiah complex eruption was a spanner in their works, but it now appears the religionists have welcomed it.

Most of us know (you thinking yourself so slick and cunning that no one else sees it) that there is little chance of the KY State Legislature impeaching and removing Davis from office. It's Kentucky! She lives in rural Kentucky, in Appalachia as far as I can determine. I don't know that most people in Kentucky go to church, most people don't anymore. But, I wouldn't be surprised to find that most people in her part of Kentucky who do identify with a church are likely to be foot stomping, hell fire and brimstone, religionists like Davis. And no, I don't care. I've already said I have no plans to live there.

Given her rural location and all of the above, Kentucky politicos are highly unlikely to impeach and dismiss Davis. Kentucky would not likely support that. (Surprise! We all know that.) However with Kentucky politics in mind Davis' situation has become a golden opportunity for national religious extremists to establish a bit of religious entitlement in government. Huckabee, Liberty University and others are jumping on it like flies on a dung heap.

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You are misstating the reason she was sent to jail. She was sent to jail because she refused to perform her job as ordered by the court. She refused to perform duties for which she was elected and for which she is paid because of her religious convictions, which she has determined, take priority over the work of the people.

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

roguenuke said:

Ethically, she has two options. Impeachment isn't one of her choices, but rather something mandated upon her. It would be the consequence of her continuing to unethically choose not to do her job as she agreed to do it, impartially.

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Ethics are subjective. She considers living her religious beliefs to be ethical. Personally I respect people who walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

WorldWatcher said:

And her appeal went to the 6th Circuit Court, the Circuit Court that received her previous appeal to have the Rowan County Clerks Office not issue any Marriage Licenses.

Why do you thing after rejecting the previous stay request to be allowed not have any licenses issued do you thing the 6th Circuit will issue a stay this time to allow her to order the office not to issue any licenses?


BTW - after the first request to the 6th Circuit the request to shut down marriage license operation went to the Unite States Supreme Court who also denied her request.



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At this point, because the courts made a martyr out of her, she has a fan club, followers and backers with lots of money the stay will go back to court.. Handling this the wrong way has made the hole deal a big circle jerk.

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

sawdust said:

Complex Question

Definition:

Two otherwise unrelated points are conjoined and treated as a single proposition. The reader is expected to accept or reject both together, when in reality one is acceptable while the other is not. A complex question is an illegitimate use of the "and" operator.

The Logical Fallacies: Complex Question

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Wrong. Not in any way, shape, or form did I or anyone else present a Complex Question. You asked "which government employees" to the question of whether you support other government employees who basically faced the same situation you claimed Davis faced, having the law changed after taking office. The questions are very much related. Do you support such a condition, allowing religious beliefs to be considered a valid excuse to not do your job as you swore to do, for all or only certain positions? For example, would you support Kim Davis if she was a clerk in 1969 (held the office since 1967) who refused to issue a marriage license to an interracial couple because her religious beliefs deemed such couples as sinful, basically the same way the actual Kim Davis views same sex couples now? If not, then what is the reason that you support Kim Davis basically being grandfathered from having to uphold her oath of office, but not the earlier clerk?

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

Risky Thicket said:

Personally, I don't care what Kentucky or Rowan County does. I have no plans ever to reside in either. I do support Kentucky handling the matter as Kentucky wants to handle it. But that is not where religious activists want it to stop.

I am opposed to religion being involved in government. I don't want her religion or your religion or my religion involved in government at any level. I believe you disagree. I believe you would like to see your brand of religion involved in government.

I do believe that a comparatively small, extremely conservative number of religionists are, among other things, using hapless people such as Davis to worm their way into government to attempt to establish precedence. Davis has proven to be a fine useful idiot. At first I believed that her Messiah complex eruption was a spanner in their works, but it now appears the religionists have welcomed it.

Most of us know (you thinking yourself so slick and cunning that no one else sees it) that there is little chance of the KY State Legislature impeaching and removing Davis from office. It's Kentucky! She lives in rural Kentucky, in Appalachia as far as I can determine. I don't know that most people in Kentucky go to church, most people don't anymore. But, I wouldn't be surprised to find that most people in her part of Kentucky who do identify with a church are likely to be foot stomping, hell fire and brimstone, religionists like Davis. And no, I don't care. I've already said I have no plans to live there.

Given her rural location and all of the above, Kentucky politicos are highly unlikely to impeach and dismiss Davis. Kentucky would not likely support that. (Surprise! We all know that.) However with Kentucky politics in mind Davis' situation has become a golden opportunity for national religious extremists to establish a bit of religious entitlement in government. Huckabee, Liberty University and others are jumping on it like flies on a dung heap.

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You are misstating the reason she was sent to jail. She was sent to jail because she refused to perform her job as ordered by the court. She refused to perform duties for which she was elected and for which she is paid because of her religious convictions, which she has determined, take priority over the work of the people.

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It doesn't matter what you believe.

Government is not becoming involved in religion. An individual is trying to protect her religious liberty and the government will have to sort it our.

I would be shocked if the legislature doesn't impeach her, assuming they get the opportunity, find her guilty and remove her from office.

The rural nature of where she lives has little bearing on the state legislature.

I never misstated the reason she went to jail. I just said that it was the wrong tactic. It's given her a national following and lots of monied backers. The judge believed that the threat of jail would soften her stance and the opposite happened.

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

sawdust said:

At this point, because the courts made a martyr out of her, she has a fan club, followers and backers with lots of money the stay will go back to court.. Handling this the wrong way has made the hole deal a big circle jerk.

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She had that same exact "fan club" prior to being put in jail. The only people who view her as a "martyr" are those who viewed her as some sort of hero to begin with for "standing up for her beliefs against gay marriage", and even that crowd is not really all viewing her as a martyr.

Show that support for her has increased since she was put in jail.

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

roguenuke said:

Wrong. Not in any way, shape, or form did I or anyone else present a Complex Question. You asked "which government employees" to the question of whether you support other government employees who basically faced the same situation you claimed Davis faced, having the law changed after taking office. The questions are very much related. Do you support such a condition, allowing religious beliefs to be considered a valid excuse to not do your job as you swore to do, for all or only certain positions? For example, would you support Kim Davis if she was a clerk in 1969 (held the office since 1967) who refused to issue a marriage license to an interracial couple because her religious beliefs deemed such couples as sinful, basically the same way the actual Kim Davis views same sex couples now? If not, then what is the reason that you support Kim Davis basically being grandfathered from having to uphold her oath of office, but not the earlier clerk?

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I don't know what the hell you're taking about. Someone conjoined the question of interracial marriage and gay marriage. Those two subjects are materially different from an ethical and religious standpoint. There is understandable religious dogma that opposes gay marriage. Don't ask me to be an expert on religion. I am the least religious person you will ever speak to. I don't know of any religious dogma which opposes interracial marriage.

Conjoining the two different subjects is a logical fallacy.

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

sawdust said:

At this point, because the courts made a martyr out of her, she has a fan club, followers and backers with lots of money the stay will go back to court.. Handling this the wrong way has made the hole deal a big circle jerk.

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You didn't articulate why that request asking for the same thing that was previously asked for of the District Court and was denied, 6th Circuit Court and denied, and the United States Supreme Court and was denied would result in a different outcome when asking for the same thing.

Actually it's been handled quite well, calmly with allowing Ms. Davis to present her case - no circle jerk about it. Just because the outcome, at this point, was not what Ms. Davis wants (to be able to not provide Civil Marriage licenses) does not mean it was handled incorrectly.



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Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

roguenuke said:

She had that same exact "fan club" prior to being put in jail. The only people who view her as a "martyr" are those who viewed her as some sort of hero to begin with for "standing up for her beliefs against gay marriage", and even that crowd is not really all viewing her as a martyr.

Show that support for her has increased since she was put in jail.

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Everything you've said in this post is diametrically opposed to reality.

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

WorldWatcher said:

You didn't articulate why that request asking for the same thing that was previously asked for of the District Court and was denied, 6th Circuit Court and denied, and the United States Supreme Court and was denied would result in a different outcome when asking for the same thing.

Actually it's been handled quite well, calmly with allowing Ms. Davis to present her case - no circle jerk about it. Just because the outcome, at this point, was not what Ms. Davis wants (to be able to not provide Civil Marriage licenses) does not mean it was handled incorrectly.



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The circle jerk has just begun.

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

TheDemSocialist said:

There is no way its a reasonable argument. Her job is to enforce the law. She was not enforcing the law but instead defying it.

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She or anybody has the right to put their faith above the law. God first and country second and that has been the case since the beginning of religious worship as we all know history shows the state attempting to crush the concept of faith above state laws all through out the world. Homosexual marriage was frowned upon by Obama until his aids told him it was not politically cool. Like many laws passed homosexual marriage is distasteful to millions of American and peoples throughout the world and homosexuality in itself is punishable by death in some countries. Unfortunately, political correctness is today a death sentence to those that dare say one wrong word. Americans now walk on thin ice in every aspect of their lives not to offend or disrespect another and so we are all become prisoners of our own device. Tragic to say the least. I fully support that woman and thank her for telling the lawmakers to kiss her ass.

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

sawdust said:

I don't know what the hell you're taking about. Someone conjoined the question of interracial marriage and gay marriage. Those two subjects are materially different from an ethical and religious standpoint. There is understandable religious dogma that opposes gay marriage. Don't ask me to be an expert on religion. I am the least religious person you will ever speak to. I don't know of any religious dogma which opposes interracial marriage.

Conjoining the two different subjects is a logical fallacy.

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Ahhh no they are not completely different subjects.


After the 1967 ruling in Loving v. Virginia, the case of Thomas and Carol Ann Person was heard which resulted from government officials attempting to claim that their religius views were gainst interracial marriage and therefore they could not be compelled to comply with the law. The government officials lost and ended up having to pay the Pearson's legal fees.

Then there is the cases of United States v. Brittian. After the 1967 Loving decision Sgt. Louis Voyer and Phyllis Bett attempted to marry. Government officials attempted to not perform their duties as it pertains to interracial marriage. The officials attempted to claim that because the laws in Alabama (Constitution and Statutes) banned interracial marriage they were not bound by the Loving decision. They lost.


Fast forward from the 1970's to now.


Ms. Davis's claim is that because same-sex marriage violates her religous belief she does not need to do her job and can order her subordinates not to do their jobs. Same as the Person case. Ms. Davis has also stated in court documents that she is following Kentucky law that forbids same-sex Civil Marriage, just the same as Judge Brittian did.

Ms. Davis is attempting to use the same arguments that were adjudicated in the 1970's.


Controversy about religious objection to marriage once focused on race | News | hpenews.com
https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=4101369272554922509&


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Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

WorldWatcher said:

You didn't articulate why that request asking for the same thing that was previously asked for of the District Court and was denied, 6th Circuit Court and denied, and the United States Supreme Court and was denied would result in a different outcome when asking for the same thing.

Actually it's been handled quite well, calmly with allowing Ms. Davis to present her case - no circle jerk about it. Just because the outcome, at this point, was not what Ms. Davis wants (to be able to not provide Civil Marriage licenses) does not mean it was handled incorrectly.



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sawdust said:

The circle jerk has just begun.

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Your dodge and inability to articulate an answer is noted.

Thank you.


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Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

sawdust said:

I don't know what the hell you're taking about. Someone conjoined the question of interracial marriage and gay marriage. Those two subjects are materially different from an ethical and religious standpoint. There is understandable religious dogma that opposes gay marriage. Don't ask me to be an expert on religion. I am the least religious person you will ever speak to. I don't know of any religious dogma which opposes interracial marriage.

Conjoining the two different subjects is a logical fallacy.

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No, they are not different. They are both about marriage and, at least to some, religious objections to certain couples being able to legally marry because they view such couples as "wrong", sinful, a violation to God's order, etc. They see condoning these marriages, in both cases, as a violation of their religious principles. Just because you don't know of any religious "dogma" that opposes interracial marriages, doesn't mean they don't exist or that they aren't "valid". The fact is that there were religious based objections to interracial marriages.

Plus, you completely ignored the other one, which was judges refusing to allow divorces after a change in the laws, making divorces more easy to obtain. Are you also going to claim that there are no religious objections that you know of to divorce?

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

MaggieD said:

I rather hope she interferes as I think there is reasonable argument to be made that this is a states' rights issue.

It's one thing for the Fed to say a marriage legal in one state is a marriage legal in all. It's another thing for the Fed to force individuals to defy their religious beliefs.

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Look the Federal Government is not forcing individuals to "defy their religious beliefs." Why is this so difficult to understand? Davis works for the government and she simply cannot check off certain things she will do or not do among the Government's duties. If she feels she is being unfaithful to her god by issuing licences to same-sex couples then she should resign and take a job which is not demanding. She doesn't have the option of choosing which duties she will perform or not perform. The United States Supreme Court has ruled regarding the legality of same-sex marriages and this is now the law of the land, NOT PARTLY the law of the land because Kim Davis has said so. Kim Davis is willfully stubborn or just plain ignorant of the law. I hope she continues along the path she has hitherto chosen which will land her back in jail. She is not above the law and if her conscious is troubling her so, then why doesn't she step down. Case closed!

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

sawdust said:

Everything you've said in this post is diametrically opposed to reality.

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Prove it. Prove that her incarceration increased support for her more than simply her being sued or forced to go to court to deal with this issue. There is no way that she has that much support. The only people who see her as a martyr are those who already supported her, and her position, that same sex marriage is wrong or at least that people should have some free pass to not do their job if they maintain certain beliefs against certain things, people, activities.

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

WorldWatcher said:

Your dodge and inability to articulate an answer is noted.

Thank you.


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Ask again, this time without the run on sentence.

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

sawdust said:

Everything you've said in this post is diametrically opposed to reality.

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That would be hers and your reality you're talking about.