Russia vetoes U.N. tribunal to investigate MH17 crash in Ukraine

flogger · Jul 31, 2015

Montecresto said:
Flogger, we hashed this out at the time. If the separatists could be blamed for this it would hurt their cause and bring upon them the animosity that we see right now by folks everywhere.

But there seems little doubt the separatists did this, no doubt unintentionally but they did do it nonetheless

And there were eyewitnesses that saw Ukrainian fighter jets in the sky at the same time. And yes, the crash site was unsecured. Anyway, Russia is doing what the US does regularly with its veto. There is no legitimate complaint for this

Well they must have had darned good eyesight to see those fighters at 33,000 ft through the cloud cover that day :roll:

Rogue Valley · Jul 31, 2015

Montecresto said:
Its already obvious why Russia vetoed. And what's the big surprise. What would you like see happen to Russia for its proxy having accidentally shot down a commercial airliner mistaken for a military target. If indeed they are the responsible party, and not everybody accepts that they are.

Everyone will know the specifics in a few months.

The problem for Russia is not that its proxy rebels accidentally shot down a passenger airliner with 298 souls aboard.

Russia's overarching problem is how to work around those 298 dead souls in order to continue perpetuating the outright lie that the Kremlin has never supplied the Ukrainian rebels with any military assistance.

Montecresto · Jul 31, 2015

flogger said:
But there seems little doubt the separatists did this, no doubt unintentionally but they did do it nonetheless

Well they must have had darned good eyesight to see those fighters at 33,000 ft through the cloud cover that day :roll:

The separatists may well have indeed shot down that plane. It will not be known for certain though. And the eyewitness reports of Ukrainian fighter jets are dismissed because they don't support the forgone conclusion of those who have taken the side of the nazi's running Ukraine against the separatists, who not unlike separatists that the West is currently supporting in so many other places, would like to experience their own self determination.

Montecresto · Jul 31, 2015

Simpleχity;1064879388 said:
Everyone will know the specifics in a few months.

The problem for Russia is not that its proxy rebels accidentally shot down a passenger airliner with 298 souls aboard.

Russia's overarching problem is how to work around those 298 dead souls in order to continue perpetuating the outright lie that the Kremlin has never supplied the Ukrainian rebels with any military assistance.

Yes, and the US government has managed to work around the same lie itself, many times. Will you please explain to me why it ruffles your feathers that Russia would be supporting proxies that are advancing its interests, when seemingly, you have no problem with a HUGE history of the US government doing exactly the same thing, and not just on our borders as Russia is doing, but all over the ****ing world!??

flogger · Jul 31, 2015

Montecresto said:
And the eyewitness reports of Ukrainian fighter jets are dismissed because they don't support the forgone conclusion of those who have taken the side of the nazi's running Ukraine against the separatists, who not unlike separatists that the West is currently supporting in so many other places, would like to experience their own self determination.

No the eyewitness reports are dismissed because you could not see anything at all through the 10/10 cloud cover which was at between 10 and 11,000 feet that day. The falling pieces of the airliner were not seen by witnesses till they broke cloud cover long after the aircrafts destruction. Seeing fighters much less determining their nationality would have been quite impossible given that any such interception would have been above that cloud cover.

Try invoking simple common sense here for a moment before buying into the whole conspiracy theory BS the Russians want you to

Montecresto · Jul 31, 2015

flogger said:
No the eyewitness reports are dismissed because you could not see anything at all through the 10/10 cloud cover which was at between 10 and 11,000 feet that day. The falling pieces of the airliner were not seen by witnesses till they broke cloud cover long after the aircrafts destruction. Seeing fighters much less determining their nationality would have been quite impossible given that any such interception would have been above that cloud cover.

Try invoking simple common sense here for a moment before buying into the whole conspiracy theory BS the Russians want you to

The separatists don't have fighter jets, try that common sense on for size. And obviously for the witnesses who foreign reporters (not Russian propagandists) interviewed saw the jets below the cloud ceiling. Btw, do you think only the Russians and the Iranians are capable of propaganda? :lamo

flogger · Jul 31, 2015

Montecresto said:
The separatists don't have fighter jets, try that common sense on for size.

But they did have BUKs which they rapidly withdrew back across the border into Russia after doing this. This was filmed at the time

And obviously for the witnesses who foreign reporters (not Russian propagandists) interviewed saw the jets below the cloud ceiling.

No doubt they did. The Ukrainians were at war and had been using their SU 25 ground attack aircraft in that area. It is why the separatists needed those BUKs in the first place . This type of jet is incapable of conducting high altitude interceptions

Btw, do you think only the Russians and the Iranians are capable of propaganda? :lamo

Thats where using ones knowlege and common sense comes in

Montecresto · Jul 31, 2015

flogger said:
But they did have BUKs which they rapidly withdrew back across the border into Russia after doing this. This was filmed at the time

No doubt they did. The Ukrainians were at war and had been using their SU 25 ground attack aircraft in that area. It is why the separatists needed those BUKs in the first place . This type of jet is incapable of conducting high altitude interceptions

Thats where using ones knowlege and common sense comes in

You can't provide a motive for the separatists to shoot down a civilian airliner. Yet a glaring motive exists for the Ukrainians to do so, knowing it would be blamed on the separatists.

If the separatists did shoot the plane down, then it would be a matter of mistaken identity, which you have already conceded. In which case, this is the same unintended consequences of war that you're so ready to explain away when it's the US/UK and its campaigns and those of its proxies. IOW, there's nothing here!

flogger · Jul 31, 2015

Montecresto said:
You can't provide a motive for the separatists to shoot down a civilian airliner.

I'm sure it was unintentional so no motive was involved though the lack of dignity and respect given the remains of the victims by these separatists afterwards at the crash site was pretty disgusting and many observers commented on that

Yet a glaring motive exists for the Ukrainians to do so, knowing it would be blamed on the separatists.

The consequences for them of being caught doing something like this in the eyes of the international community would not be worth the candle. Ergo it would not be attempted

If the separatists did shoot the plane down, then it would be a matter of mistaken identity, which you have already conceded.

No doubt it was, but if the Russians hadn't provided their deeply unsavoury proxies with the hardware in the first place it would never have happened

In which case, this is the same unintended consequences of war that you're so ready to explain away when it's the US/UK and its campaigns and those of its proxies. IOW, there's nothing here!

This thread is about Russia and the Ukraine not the US and UK so by all means start a separate thread on that

Montecresto · Jul 31, 2015

flogger said:
I'm sure it was unintentional so no motive was involved though the lack of dignity and respect given the remains of the victims by these separatists afterwards at the crash site was pretty disgusting and many observers commented on that

The consequences for them of being caught doing something like this in the eyes of the international community would not be worth the candle. Ergo it would not be attempted

No doubt it was, but if the Russians hadn't provided their deeply unsavoury proxies with the hardware in the first place it would never have happened

This thread is about Russia and the Ukraine not the US and UK so by all means start a separate thread on that

Yes, this thread is about Russia and Ukraine and presumably the separatists in Eastern Ukraine that are no more unsavoury than any number of proxies our two countries have and are now supporting and I'll continue to point that out, sorry that's an inconvenient thing to acknowledge, but if you want me to take you seriously on this issue then you'll need to acknowledge the hypocrisy. If you don't care whether or not I take you seriously, that's fine, but then you may as well not engage me to begin with.

Countries are providing proxies with weapons regularly around the world, and none, no not one more so than the US. So again, there's nothing here.

And yes indeed the nazis running Ukraine presently had every motive, and capability to have committed this crime themselves. That doesn't mean they did. Its funny how people determining their own course is so important to Western nations in some places, and not in others. If you, we, everybody were to be consistent, we'd support the right of the separatists in Eastern Ukraine to do as they wish, instead of resisting them and taking a fight to them. In that case, there'd have been no shot down civilian plane, see how that works?

flogger · Jul 31, 2015

Montecresto said:
Yes, this thread is about Russia and Ukraine and presumably the separatists in Eastern Ukraine that are no more unsavoury than any number of proxies our two countries have and are now supporting and I'll continue to point that out, sorry that's an inconvenient thing to acknowledge, but if you want me to take you seriously on this issue then you'll need to acknowledge the hypocrisy. If you don't care whether or not I take you seriously, that's fine, but then you may as well not engage me to begin with.

Countries are providing proxies with weapons regularly around the world, and none, no not one more so than the US. So again, there's nothing here.

And yes indeed the nazis running Ukraine presently had every motive, and capability to have committed this crime themselves. That doesn't mean they did. Its funny how people determining their own course is so important to Western nations in some places, and not in others. If you, we, everybody were to be consistent, we'd support the right of the separatists in Eastern Ukraine to do as they wish, instead of resisting them and taking a fight to them. In that case, there'd have been no shot down civilian plane, see how that works?

This whole Ukrainian business was hatched in the mind of one man. Ukraine had lived in peace for over 20 years until he decided that it shouldn't any more because he didn't like their pro Western choices . All the subsequent events including the MH17 shootdown are a consequence of that

Montecresto · Jul 31, 2015

flogger said:
This whole Ukrainian business was hatched in the mind of one man. Ukraine had lived in peace for over 20 years until he decided that it shouldn't any more because he didn't like their pro Western choices . All the subsequent events including the MH17 shootdown are a consequence of that

Yeah, that's been your opinion from day one, and you know mine.

flogger · Jul 31, 2015

Montecresto said:
Yeah, that's been your opinion from day one, and you know mine.

Having been all over the Ukraine I think I'm a bit better informed than most. I know for a fact that Putins rent a mob militia in the East is in no way representative of the aspirations of the great bulk of the people living there.

Montecresto · Jul 31, 2015

flogger said:
Having been all over the Ukraine I think I'm a bit better informed than most. I know for a fact that Putins rent a mob militia in the East is in no way representative of the aspirations of the great bulk of the people living there.

Then that great throng, your bulk, should tell that few to set down and shut up.

flogger · Jul 31, 2015

Montecresto said:
Then that great throng, your bulk, should tell that few to set down and shut up.

Fear of the Russian army intervening even more than it presently does will be enough to silence any dissent. Once those regions have been sufficiently 'cleansed' elections will then be held to give Putin the result he wants

Thoreau72 · Jul 31, 2015

flogger said:
Russia/USSR has a history of shooting down civilian airliners ,its happened before and it will happen again. As always the West will huff and puff but ultimately do nothing.

Putin knows this

In your view, what advantage did Russia gain by shooting down MH17? Do you suppose they actually WANTED sanctions to be imposed and for that reason shot it down?

flogger · Jul 31, 2015

Henry David said:
In your view, what advantage did Russia gain by shooting down MH17? Do you suppose they actually WANTED sanctions to be imposed and for that reason shot it down?

It was a consequence of Russia's war by proxy in the Ukraine. It may well turn out to have been an accident that needn't have happened were that not the case

Thoreau72 · Jul 31, 2015

flogger said:
It was a consequence of Russia's war by proxy in the Ukraine. It may well turn out to have been an accident that needn't have happened were that not the case

So then, it was an accident, not intentional?

Any thoughts on why nobody can produce a picture of the launch and ascent? Any thoughts on why none of the peasant witnesses made no reference to signs left by the launch of such a missile, yet did comment about the presence of fighter type aircraft in the area just prior to the event?

Any thoughts on why the Russians so quickly provided their radar data showing climbing military aircraft, even as Kiev and Washington have provided nothing at all to corroborate their view?

And if there was nothing to hide, I wonder why on earth Kiev so quickly confiscated the ATC records concerning that flight? It's so similar to the FBI confiscating all the surveillance videos from the hotels and civilian establishments near the Pentagon on 11 September.....

flogger · Jul 31, 2015

Henry David said:
So then, it was an accident, not intentional?

Any thoughts on why nobody can produce a picture of the launch and ascent? Any thoughts on why none of the peasant witnesses made no reference to signs left by the launch of such a missile, yet did comment about the presence of fighter type aircraft in the area just prior to the event?

Do you imagine every launch and ascent of a SAM is filmed ? :shock:

I've gone over this all already tonight so read through the more recent pages of this thread

Thoreau72 · Jul 31, 2015

Montecresto said:
You can't provide a motive for the separatists to shoot down a civilian airliner. Yet a glaring motive exists for the Ukrainians to do so, knowing it would be blamed on the separatists. If the separatists did shoot the plane down, then it would be a matter of mistaken identity, which you have already conceded. In which case, this is the same unintended consequences of war that you're so ready to explain away when it's the US/UK and its campaigns and those of its proxies. IOW, there's nothing here!

Wouldn't the scenario you describe be called a "false flag operation"?

Thoreau72 · Jul 31, 2015

flogger said:
I've gone over this all already tonight so read through the more recent pages of this thread

I have. So far nothing persuasive from you, nothing new, just the same tired old propaganda points shoved down my throat by the mainstream media on the day it happened.

flogger · Jul 31, 2015

Henry David said:
I have. So far nothing persuasive from you, nothing new, just the same tired old propaganda points shoved down my throat by the mainstream media on the day it happened.

So whats your latest conspiracy theory about it all then coz I know you love em ? :lol:

DA60 · Jul 31, 2015

I still do not see the big deal here (other then the lives that were lost) in terms of guilt.

A civilian plane flew into a war zone and got shot down.

I do not care how many other civilian planes did the same thing...you are asking for a TON of trouble if you deliberately fly a civilian airliner into a known war zone.

I assume the rebels shot down the plane. But I also assume they did not know it was a civilian airliner. And until I have proof that they DID know it was a civilian airliner, I am afraid this should just be chalked up to 'DO NOT FLY INTO A WAR ZONE'.

Why is it that when the U.S. accidently shot down that Iranian airliner (and 290 people died) that it was a mistake but that when Russian-backed rebels accidently do the same thing that it is murder?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

I smell hypocrisy on this.

Thoreau72 · Jul 31, 2015

flogger said:
So what your latest conspiracy theory about it all then coz I know you love em ? :lol:

My theory, stated many times here, is that MH17 was brought down by AAM and cannon fire.

Who dunnit? Not the Russians. Somebody with the required aircraft in their inventory.

Why? Holy Cow Batman, we could start another thread about that. :mrgreen:

Thoreau72 · Jul 31, 2015

DA60 said:
I still do not see the big deal here (other then the lives that were lost).

A civilian plane flew into a war zone and got shot down.

I do not care how many other civilian planes did the same thing...you are asking for a TON of trouble if you deliberately fly a civilian airliner into a known war zone.

I assume the rebels shot down the plane. But I also assume they did not know it was a civilian airliner. And until I have proof that they DID know it was a civilian airliner, I am afraid this should just be chalked up to 'DO NOT FLY INTO A WAR ZONE'.

Why is it that when the U.S. accidently shot down that Iranian airliner (and 290 people died) that it was a mistake but that when Russian-backed rebels accidently do the same thing that it is murder?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

I smell hypocrisy on this.

In your study of this issue, have you seen any photos of the launch and ascent of a BUK type missile? Is it true that they leave a noticeable trail upon launch and ascent? Do you suppose such trails are visible to satellite cameras?

Russia vetoes U.N. tribunal to investigate MH17 crash in Ukraine

Lead or get out of the way