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Video of police killing unarmed man released

Μολὼν λαβέ;1064823892 said:
You OK with cops being judge, jury, and executioner? Because that's what happened.
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His favorite movie is Judge Dredd?


Edit: Although, to be fair, I think Dredd was usually more fair than these cops.
 
Lursa said:
In this instance, that difference does not matter. There was no immediate threat. They had their guns already drawn.

THEY are the ones supposedly with superior training, so then they should be held doubly responsible for allowing fear or poor judgement to overcome their ability to discern that threat properly.

With their guns already drawn, the cops had the advantage and time to identify an actual weapon or other imminent lethal threat.
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You're making a lot of assumptions that are unrealistic.
 
Beaudreaux said:
You're making a lot of assumptions that are unrealistic.
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I'm assuming nothing not shown in the videos (unless you want to claim the cops didnt already have their guns drawn?)

With their guns drawn, did they, or did they not, have the advantage and the time and ability to identify a lethal threat, such as a firearm, from those men? Where was the necessary JOA of the suspects?

If *I* shot in such circumstances, *I'd* be in jail. Charged, and charged with at least manslaughter.
 
Lursa said:
I'm assuming nothing not shown in the videos
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You are watching the video, but are not subject to the same adrenalin that a real life situation entails.
Lursa said:
(unless you want to claim the cops didnt already have their guns drawn?)
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Yes, but not relevant - cops have been shot and killed by others even when they had their guns drawn - an assumption on your part that having their guns drawn would keep them safe or prevent the other guy from pulling a weapon or whatever you assume would make a difference by them having their guns drawn given that the only difference it would have made was to allow them to possibly shoot before they were shot themselves. The only way to ensure that, would be to shoot quickly, which they did, which made it a bad shoot since they did not in fact see a weapon. But (yes, again "but"), they followed procedure and policy and although it was a bad shoot, it was not criminal since the boy did not follow instructions and made moves as if he may be covering his hand and distract, to allow him to pull a weapon out.

Lursa said:
With their guns drawn, did they, or did they not, have the advantage and the time and ability to identify a lethal threat, such as a firearm, from those men?
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Yes. Never said otherwise. In fact I discussed that above. However, you are assuming that the they did not fear for their life by the boy not following instructions, taking his hat off, failing around with his hands and then reaching to his sides. Neither you nor I can get into their heads and know for a fact what they were thinking. And, as I said above, there have been numerous instances of cops getting shot and killed even with them having their guns drawn, so these cops would be justified in not feeling safe just because they had their guns drawn.
Lursa said:
Where was the necessary JOA of the suspects?
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JOA?

Lursa said:
If *I* shot in such circumstances, *I'd* be in jail. Charged, and charged with at least manslaughter.
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Lursa, again, we as civilians have a different burden than the police prior to drawing a gun or using it. We as a society have given the police special powers over us so that they can do their jobs. Those powers are not limitless and in too many cases are exceeded - but this does not appear to be one of them. You can be charged with and convicted of a felony just for pointing gun at a person. A policeman has the ability to do the same without being charged. Same goes for shooting a person in the defense of the policeman's life, or even just to stop a felonious act by a person. So, your comparison to you being in jail for doing what a cop has the legal ability to do is not correct.

It was a bad shoot, but not criminal.
 
Beaudreaux said:
You are watching the video, but are not subject to the same adrenalin that a real life situation entails. Yes, but not relevant - cops have been shot and killed by others even when they had their guns drawn - an assumption on your part that having their guns drawn would keep them safe or prevent the other guy from pulling a weapon or whatever you assume would make a difference by them having their guns drawn given that the only difference it would have made was to allow them to possibly shoot before they were shot themselves. The only way to ensure that, would be to shoot quickly, which they did, which made it a bad shoot since they did not in fact see a weapon. But (yes, again "but"), they followed procedure and policy and although it was a bad shoot, it was not criminal since the boy did not follow instructions and made moves as if he may be covering his hand and distract, to allow him to pull a weapon out.
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The bold is the whole point. And thru training and research (timed, etc) we and they (should) know how to react better. Move off their position, de-escalate, NOT shoot as soon as someone they stop on the street gets jiggy and moves their hands around.

I am well aware of adreneline. (We try to increase it in training circumstances but out IRL, not gun-related, I have certainly experienced it) It is not a free pass to kill people. They are trained to assess and use good judgement. You pretty much just admitted they were too scared to use that good judgement.

So I guess you are just making a distinction between 'bad shoot' and criminal. As did their dept. Sad for society to have to accept such incompetance. Was there disciplinary action?
 
Beaudreaux said:
Lursa, again, we as civilians have a different burden than the police prior to drawing a gun or using it. We as a society have given the police special powers over us so that they can do their jobs. Those powers are not limitless and in too many cases are exceeded - but this does not appear to be one of them. You can be charged with and convicted of a felony just for pointing gun at a person. A policeman has the ability to do the same without being charged. Same goes for shooting a person in the defense of the policeman's life, or even just to stop a felonious act by a person. So, your comparison to you being in jail for doing what a cop has the legal ability to do is not correct.

It was a bad shoot, but not criminal.
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Yes, the standard for their self control and judgement should be...and is...much higher. They have the training. They are subjected to stresses and scenarios. They confront people everyday intentionally.

That 'bad shoot' should carry very serious consequences for those offices. Did it?
 
Lursa said:
The bold is the whole point. And thru training and research (timed, etc) we and they (should) know how to react better. Move off their position, de-escalate, NOT shoot as soon as someone they stop on the street gets jiggy and moves their hands around.

I am well aware of adreneline. (We try to increase it in training circumstances but out IRL, not gun-related, I have certainly experienced it) It is not a free pass to kill people. They are trained to assess and use good judgement. You pretty much just admitted they were too scared to use that good judgement.

So I guess you are just making a distinction between 'bad shoot' and criminal. As did their dept. Sad for society to have to accept such incompetance. Was there disciplinary action?
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It's extremely sad. I don't know if I would go as far as saying it was due to incompetence, but you may very well be right since there is no evidence to the contrary either - that I am aware of, that is. And yes, you are correct, I am making a distinction between a bad shoot and a criminal act, just as the department did (as far as I know), but more importantly, the way the law differentiates between the two for police officers.

This whole event was a very sad event for the boys that were shot, including the one that did not die and the one that was not shot. People forget that little fact - that one boy was not shot at all. You know why? Because he froze like a statue and followed the police officers instructions and is still alive to talk about it. The boy that died... did not, unfortunately for him.

I hate it. It's awful. The fact that a young man lost his life is a tragedy. However, trying to blame the police, or even him for not following instructions, is futile and would cause nothing but more pain for the family of the deceased young man (because the cops will not be found guilty, even if they are charged out of some ill advised social justice reasoning).
 
Lursa said:
Yes, the standard for their self control and judgement should be...and is...much higher.
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They are human, and are not required to not have emotions. They are required to not act on those emotions... if possible. Which may not be possible, or realistic, in every case. Especially those involving firearms.
Lursa said:
They have the training. They are subjected to stresses and scenarios.
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Yes, they are trained. They are expected to have the ability to withstand the hatred shown to them by way too many people in many communities. They get verbally abused and in some cases, even loose their lives - so that you and I can live a peaceful life.

Lursa said:
They confront people everyday intentionally.
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Not sure what you mean here.

Lursa said:
That 'bad shoot' should carry very serious consequences for those offices.
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First, it will be in the mind and dreams of the officer that shot the boy, and on his soul as a burden for the rest of his life. Secondly, he is under investigation, and many people in this country have already convicted him in their minds and have labeled him a murderer, without the benefit of all the evidence or all the facts - that is mental punishment at the very least.
Lursa said:
Did it?
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I have no idea. I'm not following it that closely.
 
Beaudreaux said:
Yup, cops are horrible people. We should do away with the police force of every city, town and local village.

Look, cops are human beings and are thus not infallible. People make mistakes. Accidents happen.

These cops didn't just decide to stop these three people to screw with them. The cops were responding to a call that these guys fit the description of the suspects. They were doing their job - a very dangerous and THANKLESS job.

This thread is proof of that.
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Seems I've already made the comment earlier in the thread and didn't realize it was the same thread soo..... deleting this dupe.
 
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