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Flag burners get attacked by bikers[W:634]

Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

Its not a right to deliberately attempt to enrage someone.

That is not entirely correct. There is a difference in when insidious speech and actions are prohibited and allowed.

The court has consistently ruled insidious speech and actions allowed in the public square. Insidious speech is usually held not a right when banned by an entity such as a college campus when insidious speech causes difficulty for the institution to maintain order.
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

Yes, it is. I already told you I have no sympathy for someone burning our flag.

It's not your flag unless you purchased it. If I go to Walmart and buy a flag...when does it become yours?
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

Well, that is a typically constructed appeal to emotion, and not the first time I've ever heard it either.

Let me retort.

Symbolic acts can only affect you to the extent you allow them to. The flags I fought for either fly over the posts I was stationed at, or are enshrined in places of honor around the country. The flags people burn in order to incite my reaction are merely pieces of colored cloth purchased in some novelty store.

Eminently reasonable. I, however, do not view the flag as a piece of cloth, and those who burn it obviously don't either, or they wouldn't bother. It's not that I allow them to imbue the flag with something that isn't there. It is there.

Burning such flags does not “piss on the graves” of anyone. However, using that kind of emotional appeal to justify attacking someone exercising a non-violent act of free expression is what TRULY serves to piss on the graves of those who fought and died for the right of fellow citizens to express themselves freely.

I don't care one whit if Iranians burn the flag. Americans burning the flag is another matter. It's a complete lack of appreciation for the freedoms they enjoy, and therefore is a lack of appreciation for the sacrifices made by others to ensure that freedom.

The “fundamental beliefs that transcend law and land” encompass individual liberty, which is limited only to prevent actual harm to others and/or the property of others. As I have said before, we have the right of self-defense to preserve liberty, not the right of aggressive-offense simply because we don’t like how someone else exercises their liberty in a non-violent manner.

I am equally free to express my displeasure and put the damn fire out. If somebody's feelings are hurt, they can walk away.

If you don’t like watching someone burn a flag, exercise your right to walk away. If you choose to respond aggressively against a non-violent protestor then expect me (even if I don’t agree with their expression) to step up to defend their right to do so. That's what I enlisted and served my country for.

Just because you don't see a star beneath my name doesn't mean I didn't serve. I'm not wrapping myself in the flag. Understand, it's not the burning itself that prompts my response, it's the belief that's behind such an act that does, and that surely represents complete disrespect for the sacrifices that allow them to do such a thing. At some point, one either has to act in opposition to such things and what they mean, or accept them as whatever you choose to define them as representative of. The intention is clear. What you care to do about it is your concern. I'll be putting the fire out.
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

physically assaulted OK for you?


didn't take you for a semanticist

I think that calling what happened violent is a stretch. The bikers group wasnt being polite. But then the flag burners were not being polite either. In fact burning a flag in the manner that they did and for what they stated before and during is being very aggressive. But you keep denying that fact and pretending that no one would be effected by seeing their nations flag burned while people called out insults. yes pushing people down can be considered assault. yes slapping or just pushing someone could be considered assault. But no one was charged with assault so it wasnt assault. A action is only a crime if you are found guilty of a crime. So in reality the protesters and the counter protesters were having a heated argument. It was not violent by any stretch of the imagination.
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

I think that calling what happened violent is a stretch. The bikers group wasnt being polite. But then the flag burners were not being polite either. In fact burning a flag in the manner that they did and for what they stated before and during is being very aggressive. But you keep denying that fact and pretending that no one would be effected by seeing their nations flag burned while people called out insults. yes pushing people down can be considered assault. yes slapping or just pushing someone could be considered assault. But no one was charged with assault so it wasnt assault.

Yes it was an assault.

'At Common Law, an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact.'

assault legal definition of assault

A action is only a crime if you are found guilty of a crime. So in reality the protesters and the counter protesters were having a heated argument. It was not violent by any stretch of the imagination.

Oh, come on now.

So, if I murder someone and never get charged with it (because there is never enough evidence to convict me), then I committed no crime?

You cannot be serious.

'crime

1.
an action or an instance of negligence that is deemed injurious to the public welfare or morals or to the interests of the state and that is legally prohibited.'


Crime | Define Crime at Dictionary.com


Assaulting someone IS a crime. Whether you get convicted of it is another matter.
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

If you say so. I have regard for our nations flag. Clearly you don't.

I have much more regard for its principles than its symbols.
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

Dont like armed police, move to England. That is a protest.

Ah yes, "if you don't like it, leave." I don't think you have the slightest clue of the principles upon which this nation was founded.
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

In fact some have claimed that very thing. You never saw Pamela Geller getting blamed for what happened during her Draw Mohammed Day?

Please link to posts specifically stating that violence against Geller was justified. Bonus points if you can find where I actually said that.
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

Yes it was an assault.

'At Common Law, an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact.'

assault legal definition of assault



Oh, come on now.

So, if I murder someone and never get charged with it (because there is never enough evidence to convict me), then I committed no crime?

You cannot be serious.

'crime

1.
an action or an instance of negligence that is deemed injurious to the public welfare or morals or to the interests of the state and that is legally prohibited.'


Crime | Define Crime at Dictionary.com


Assaulting someone IS a crime. Whether you get convicted of it is another matter.

Lol you are crying over some adults that had a argument.
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

Eminently reasonable. I, however, do not view the flag as a piece of cloth, and those who burn it obviously don't either, or they wouldn't bother. It's not that I allow them to imbue the flag with something that isn't there. It is there.


I am equally free to express my displeasure and put the damn fire out. If somebody's feelings are hurt, they can walk away...


At some point, one either has to act in opposition to such things and what they mean, or accept them as whatever you choose to define them as representative of. The intention is clear. What you care to do about it is your concern. I'll be putting the fire out.

A careful examination of my posts clearly shows that I have no objection to a non-violent response to a non-violent protest. Walking up and pouring water on a fire in a public place is a non-violent response.

However, that was not the tone and tenor or YOUR original posts citing "consequence's of their actions," and you know that very well. Otherwise you would have felt no need to respond to me.

There is absolutely no excuse for violence against peaceful protesters in a free society. Even police should use the absolute minimum force when arresting participants in sit-ins, barricades, marches, etc. So in case you continue to pretend to misunderstand me, if I see anyone physically attack another American citizen who is peacefully protesting on American soil I will intercede to defend their right to do so the same way I would defend that right by serving in combat overseas.
 
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Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

if I see anyone physically attack another American citizen who is peacefully protesting on American soil I will intercede to defend their right to do so the same way I would defend that right in combat overseas.

ANd other people will continue to defend the flag in any way that they see fit.

`
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

ANd other people will continue to defend the flag in any way that they see fit.

`

Perhaps. But then one would have to ask...who is truly defending the ideals of liberty? The person standing up for an individual's right to non-violent expression of free speech? Or the person battering the protestor in defense of a "symbol" of free speech?

Think about it.
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

Well, that is a typically constructed appeal to emotion, and not the first time I've ever heard it either.

Let me retort.



Eminently reasonable. I, however, do not view the flag as a piece of cloth, and those who burn it obviously don't either, or they wouldn't bother. It's not that I allow them to imbue the flag with something that isn't there. It is there.



I don't care one whit if Iranians burn the flag. Americans burning the flag is another matter. It's a complete lack of appreciation for the freedoms they enjoy, and therefore is a lack of appreciation for the sacrifices made by others to ensure that freedom.



I am equally free to express my displeasure and put the damn fire out. If somebody's feelings are hurt, they can walk away.



Just because you don't see a star beneath my name doesn't mean I didn't serve. I'm not wrapping myself in the flag. Understand, it's not the burning itself that prompts my response, it's the belief that's behind such an act that does, and that surely represents complete disrespect for the sacrifices that allow them to do such a thing. At some point, one either has to act in opposition to such things and what they mean, or accept them as whatever you choose to define them as representative of. The intention is clear. What you care to do about it is your concern. I'll be putting the fire out.

Greetings, humbolt. :2wave:

:thumbs: You made an excellent point when you stated that the people burning our flag didn't consider it "just a piece of cloth." I hadn't thought of it that way, but you're right. It had a meaning for them, or they could have burned an old T-shirt or something. In Houston, the Westboro Baptist Church used to demonstrate during the funerals of veterans from all our wars. My daughter served as a Memorial Lady along with many others, since they all have regular jobs and serve as volunteers. They all wear the same uniform and sit with the family when the color guard presents the flag to the family. She said the saddest funerals were the widows of WW2 servicemen, because they were so elderly and didn't understand why they were being heckled at such a sad time. A decision was made to enlist the help of the Freedom riders, a large motorcycle-riding group of men. They made a ring around the cemetery a quarter mile away, and prevented any protestors from getting any closer. They could shout insults all they wanted - nobody could hear them. It worked. Nobody's freedom of speech was denied them, the cyclists were mean-looking enough to serve as a reminder that people weren't going to put up with their antics, and the funerals were conducted in dignity. And those cyclists were there for every funeral that took place, humbolt, on their own time and for love of this country, as many of them had also served in the military. Eventually the Westboro people gave up and stopped coming. That's one way to handle troublemakers! I can't fault those cyclists who put the fire out and stopped the recent flag burning. They could probably done a lot more in anger at what they saw, but they didn't have to, since the cowards ran away!
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

I have much more regard for its principles than its symbols.

And nowhere are the principles you speak of include defaming the US and its national flag.
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

It's not your flag unless you purchased it. If I go to Walmart and buy a flag...when does it become yours?

Go buy one, set it ablaze and feel good about yourself.
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

Perhaps. But then one would have to ask...who is truly defending the ideals of liberty? The person standing up for an individual's right to non-violent expression of free speech? Or the person battering the protestor in defense of a "symbol" of free speech?

Think about it.

While we are thinking about things. The the occupy group/disarm nypd admitted that they use the flag burning tactic to gain attention. They wanted people to get upset so that this story would make its rounds. They wanted their message to be spread around. They knew that they were pissing people off. And in typical fashion for a far left extremist group manipulate human emotion to get more air play. They are happy; the only people upset are people like you that dont understand their tactics.
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

Please link to posts specifically stating that violence against Geller was justified. Bonus points if you can find where I actually said that.
I asked
In fact some have claimed that very thing. You never saw Pamela Geller getting blamed for what happened during her Draw Mohammed Day?

Poor Johnny still can't read! I never used the word "justified", i said "blamed".
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

Greetings, humbolt. :2wave:

:thumbs: You made an excellent point when you stated that the people burning our flag didn't consider it "just a piece of cloth." I hadn't thought of it that way, but you're right. It had a meaning for them, or they could have burned an old T-shirt or something. In Houston, the Westboro Baptist Church used to demonstrate during the funerals of veterans from all our wars. My daughter served as a Memorial Lady along with many others, since they all have regular jobs and serve as volunteers. They all wear the same uniform and sit with the family when the color guard presents the flag to the family. She said the saddest funerals were the widows of WW2 servicemen, because they were so elderly and didn't understand why they were being heckled at such a sad time. A decision was made to enlist the help of the Freedom riders, a large motorcycle-riding group of men. They made a ring around the cemetery a quarter mile away, and prevented any protestors from getting any closer. They could shout insults all they wanted - nobody could hear them. It worked. Nobody's freedom of speech was denied them, the cyclists were mean-looking enough to serve as a reminder that people weren't going to put up with their antics, and the funerals were conducted in dignity. And those cyclists were there for every funeral that took place, humbolt, on their own time and for love of this country, as many of them had also served in the military. Eventually the Westboro people gave up and stopped coming. That's one way to handle troublemakers! I can't fault those cyclists who put the fire out and stopped the recent flag burning. They could probably done a lot more in anger at what they saw, but they didn't have to, since the cowards ran away!
These are the symbols they burned.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=flag...QoTCKeyk6v42cYCFQMZPgodU2IMPgbiw=1600&bih=742

If they feel strongly about something they should be prepared for the consequences, just as the bikers were.
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

I want to burn a few flags now ! Especially that confederate stars and bars !
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

And nowhere are the principles you speak of include defaming the US and its national flag.

Freedom of speech. Learn something sometime.
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

Right because bike gangs are really the image of "patriotism" we need to regale... NOT! They're quite often criminals, murderers, drugs dealers, .... really, this is somehow good?

Such childish perspectives.
The childish perspective and the hypocrisy here is that no bike gangs are not often criminals, murders, drug dealers, etc. can we attribute higher rates that the general population? Maybe, the same as we could for illegal immigrants (not counting immigration law violations). But a higher rate over the general population does not make "often".

The rest of your post I agree with in general.
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

And nowhere are the principles you speak of include defaming the US and its national flag.

When you become more attached to the object than the principles it contains or represents then you are already lost. You seem to have the same mindset for the U.S. flag that Muslim extremists have for the Koran
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

Looks like the protesters got what they deserved. ;)

I swore an oath the defend the Constitution, just like the biker jarhead. He seems to forget that part while acting like a punk bully. The flag is a symbol, and yes i do seem to get something in my eye and my throat gets a bit tight as it passes by or a certain anthem is played, but it isn't sacred.

Funny how a bunch of bikers start a huge rumble at a Texas twin Peaks with mass mayhem one day and then attack people exercising their CONSTITUTIONAL rights the next and a few CONs applaud... :doh
 
Re: Flag burners get attacked by bikers

If they feel strongly about something they should be prepared for the consequences, just as the bikers were.

So whatever we do that is LEGAL BTW, we should be prepared to face attack and ILLEGAL actions?
 
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