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SC Confederate Flag Taken Down From State Capitol in South Carolina

HorseLoverGirl said:
No the MYTH that slavery was the main issue has been indoctrinated into anyone who believes what the textbooks say. THAT is what is tragic.
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The Southern states were rather clear in their declarations of secession what their ends were. And, yes, it's disgusting. If I were seeking to hold up the Confederate flag as something vaguely noble, I too would ignore the rationales offered for secession. They're truly despicable.

I don't quite understand why you've taken the position you have. But I don't envy you!
 
Greenbeard said:
The Southern states were rather clear in their declarations of secession what their ends were. And, yes, it's disgusting. If I were seeking to hold up the Confederate flag as something vaguely noble, I too would ignore the rationales offered for secession. They're truly despicable.

I don't quite understand why you've taken the position you have. But I don't envy you!
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I can't even get her to admit the Confederate Constitution has the words slave and slavery in it.

A true Lost Cause.
 
Paperview said:
I can't even get her to admit the Confederate Constitution has the words slave and slavery in it.

A true Lost Cause.
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A Southern history "education" is about as bad as I feared. Including the "if we didn't ratify it, it doesn't count!" rule.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
Yeah sane people are obviously "lost" aren't we?
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How do "sane" people oppose the 13th amendment (the end of slavery in the U.S.)? I don't understand how you obvious slavery apologists try to simultaneously deflect the racist label that so obviously applies to you.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
In other words Mississippi taught the truth. Nice to know the truth isn't being ignored.
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Yeah, Mississippi was rather clear about the main cause. The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - ...
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Those are the opening sentences, and they speak for themselves. I thank them for their honesty, and the clarity with which they stated their reasons!
 
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Greenbeard said:
Clearly the myth that "slavery was a side issue" has permeated deep into some who learned history in the South. A tragic mistake.
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I'm ashamed to admit that I grew up in the South and I was in my 30s before I ever read the declarations of secession, the Constitution of the CSA, and other writings. Until that time I knew that slavery was the big issue but reading those men in their own words describe their intent really put to rest forever that the cause was some noble defense of "states' rights" or other such nonsense.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
In other words Mississippi taught the truth. Nice to know the truth isn't being ignored.
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It's the truth as long as one ignores the FACTS that are so easily found in several of the articles of secession of the Confederate states, and in the 'cornerstone' speech by the vice president of the Confederacy.

It's sad that you're so determined to protect what you believe to be your heritage that you're willing to flatly ignore what was said and written by the leaders of the Confederacy themselves.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
The MAIN issue was the right of the states to govern themselves as they saw fit. That meant keeping slavery if they chose to, among other things
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'Main issue' only if one never read the articles of secession of the Confederate states, or the 'cornerstone' speech by the vice president of the Confederacy.

But I get it - your pride in what you believe to be your heritage is more important than accepting the FACTS, the words written and spoken by the leaders of the Confederacy themselves.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
It's the truth as long as one ignores the FACTS that are so easily found in several of the articles of secession of the Confederate states, and in the 'cornerstone' speech by the vice president of the Confederacy.

It's sad that you're so determined to protect what you believe to be your heritage that you're willing to flatly ignore what was said and written by the leaders of the Confederacy themselves.
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She refuses to read them.

Believe me, I've tried.

For years and years and years.
 
That's sad. They try to get rid of their heritage. The confederacy is surely a losing side but still it's a part of the history of the South and it should not remain at the museum. People must remember their roots.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
The MAIN issue was the right of the states to govern themselves as they saw fit. That meant keeping slavery if they chose to, among other things
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Does that mean you think keeping slavery was ok, really?
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
No the MYTH that slavery was the main issue has been indoctrinated into anyone who believes what the textbooks say. THAT is what is tragic.
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Why does it matter how prominent an issue it was? It was a major issue...fighting for the right to keep people as property.

Not only that, several generations of racists have publicly used that flag to symbolize their racist beliefs.

These are facts. This is a symbol of that factual dehumanization and racism for many many people...including white people.

If it's so offensive for us to disrespect *your* view of the flag, why isnt it just as disrespectful of you and those that agree with you to want to keep that symbol of degradation and racism for others?
 
Lursa said:
Why does it matter how prominent an issue it was? It was a major issue...fighting for the right to keep people as property.

Not only that, several generations of racists have publicly used that flag to symbolize their racist beliefs.

These are facts. This is a symbol of that factual dehumanization and racism for many many people...including white people.

If it's so offensive for us to disrespect *your* view of the flag, why isnt it just as disrespectful of you and those that agree with you to want to keep that symbol of degradation and racism for others?
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This article, from the Atlantic I read a few years back, IMO, does a dandy job of explaining some just why the LC mythology is so enmeshed:

Nathan Bedford Forrest Has Beautiful Eyes

<snip>
"I've actually long overlooked that last point by noting to myself that virtually all societies practiced slavery. But in the 1850s, the South was only bested in the scale of its slavery, by Russian serfdom. Thus this country was not merely a moral offender among many, but a moral offender on a grand scale, plying its trade at a point when much of the rest of the world had moved forward.

It is one thing to be judged immoral. But to be judged immoral and backward, at the same time, to be both debauched, and yet in your debauchery, still be a loser, is deeply painful. <snip>

The South long evaded that painful reality, and when confronted with it, simply lied. Thus pre-War Jefferson Davis is arguing that the fight is over slavery and white Supremacy. Post-war he's claiming it was about the sovereignty of states. To this day, 150 years later, you find people parroting this lie.

Nathan Bedford Forrest (pictured above) is beautiful. Again, dig those steely eyes, that dead serious countenance, the warrior's beard. His story is American--the dirt poor son of a blacksmith who becomes a millionaire. But he's noble too, and volunteers to fight for his home state of glorious Tennessee. With no military training, he rises to the rank of Lieutenant General, giving the Union hell the whole time.

Forrest is the model of Southern chivalry--too much so. He made his money buying and selling people like me, and when the war started he dutifully enforced the Confederate policy of giving no quarter to black soldiers. At Fort Pillow he massacred black soldiers trying to surrender, and afterward went on to found the Ku Klux Klan. Tennessee is dotted with monuments, not simply to the generals of the Confederacy, but to the first Grand Wizard of the KKK (Forrest). To this day, you can find people who deny his role in Fort Pillow and in the KKK.

<snip>

I imagine for a kid coming up in these times, in certain sectors of the South, it's painful to face up to Nathan Forrest, to the notion that the pomp and glamour, all the talk of honor and independence was, at the end of the day, dependent on slavery. The Lost Cause isn't just "lost," it's barely a cause.

The temptation to continue to lie, to see yourself as the victim in a grand play is formidable--consider Lindsay Graham chafing at the constraints of whiteness, while Sonia Sotamayor evidently swims in a free world of color. But I suspect that some manner of change is coming, that we are reaching point when witlessly honoring the founder of the greatest perpetrator of domestic terrorism in American history, when flying that sorry order's battle flag, becomes embarrassing.

Sooner or later, I think the South will understand that the ideology of "noble victimhood" is a luxury it too can ill-afford."
 
The old south is doomed by demographics and intermarriage.

Everywhere I go I see white mothers black fathers and mixed race babies.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
No way to know. The Brits aren't that bad, we still love the Royals after all. The French, love their culture, not to mention their food! WHEW richest stuff ever! I'm just never eating Fuax gras again, ever.
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So rather than be on your own you choose to be ruled from the French and Brits.

It is understandable that it is difficult to know exactly how such a rule over the Seeyuouth would be like, but suppose one can compare other British and French colonies?
 
Harman said:
The old south is doomed by demographics and intermarriage.

Everywhere I go I see white mothers black fathers and mixed race babies.
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How would mixed race demographics doom the south?
 
Harman said:
The old south is doomed by demographics and intermarriage.

Everywhere I go I see white mothers black fathers and mixed race babies.
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How does that doom the south? I don't call you a shouthener but a bigot.
 
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