SC Confederate Flag Taken Down From State Capitol in South Carolina

rhinefire said:

Question To All: Directly after the end of the Civil War what di the flag of the north represent in terms of equality for all? Equal rights for......? Maybe we should take down the other flag as well and start over.

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Obviously the north didn't want the South to be equal in any way shape or form, since President Johnson was impeached for not caving to the yankee politicians who really wanted to stick it to the South.

JasperL said:

Well, last time I looked, the legislature of the State of SC didn't vote to raise the f'ing "Gold's Gym" flag atop their state house while they were fighting to keep Jim Crow and their black citizens oppressed, enforced by the guns of the state police.

You keep wanting to ignore THAT flag has a very specific and easily documented history. It was no accident that Root and the KKK and the State of SC and the State of GA and George Wallace, and these guys picked the Rebel Flag:

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George Wallace stood for what he believed the people of Alabama wanted (that's is what leaders are supposed to do, remember?) Then later in his life he recognized the inevitable and changed his own views(we are allowed to do that you know). Unlike the lying floor licking trash we have today in government that say anything to get elected George Wallace spoke from within and in my opinion was a damn good person. Don't like it ? Tuff.

HorseLoverGirl said:

So you prove my point yet again. You miss it on purpose. Thought that was the case.

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OK, then what is your point? Please be specific.

I'll tell you mine. It's that the Rebel flag has a history, and during the civil rights era it stood for opposition to civil and human rights for black citizens, the continuation of Jim Crow.

rhinefire said:

George Wallace stood for what he believed the people of Alabama wanted (that's is what leaders are supposed to do, remember?) Then later in his life he recognized the inevitable and changed his own views(we are allowed to do that you know). Unlike the lying floor licking trash we have today in government that say anything to get elected George Wallace spoke from within and in my opinion was a damn good person. Don't like it ? Tuff.

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Well, that's only partially correct. He stood for what WHITE people in Alabama wanted.

Blacks weren't allowed to register or vote or run for office or serve on juries because of the Jim Crow laws Wallace supported at that time. So he didn't have to answer to the black population. It's why that whole Voting Rights Act thing was needed - so that black citizens could exercise their basic civil right of voting.

It's incredible that defenders of the Jim Crow era and the Rebel flag don't get this. The complete ignorance of the shameful history of the South is pretty astounding.

Should we ban the American flag too, since apparently the had them with the klan as well.


I know some people are taking this whole thing too far in my thoughs like taking the Dukes of Hazzders off the air to asking them to dig up a confederate general and his wife from their resting place and moving them. Seriously, I am pro confederate flag waving it's a view of southern pride nothing more.

Ryriena said:

Should we ban the American flag too, since apparently the had them with the klan as well.

I know some people are taking this whole thing too far in my thoughs like taking the Dukes of Hazzders off the air to asking them to dig up a confederate general and his wife from their resting place and moving them. Seriously, I am pro confederate flag waving it's a view of southern pride nothing more.

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First of all, this is about the Rebel flag. That symbol has a specific history. If you'd like to start a thread about whether we should ban the American flag from state property, fine.

Second, the "confederate general" is the reported founder of the KKK, even if we ignore that he was a Confederate general and fought a war that if won would have kept the black ancestors of the Memphis residents in slavery for perhaps generations longer. I'm not a Memphis resident, but I'm not really sure a monument and grave site owned by the City to the founder of the KKK is appropriate in a city that is over 60% black. I can't really blame them for wanting to move the grave. What exactly is a black resident of Memphis supposed to celebrate about the life of Nathan Bedford Forrest?

Ryriena said:

Should we ban the American flag too, since apparently the had them with the klan as well.

I know some people are taking this whole thing too far in my thoughs like taking the Dukes of Hazzders off the air to asking them to dig up a confederate general and his wife from their resting place and moving them. Seriously, I am pro confederate flag waving it's a view of southern pride nothing more.

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First of all, this is about the Rebel flag. That symbol has a specific history. If you'd like to start a thread about whether we should ban the American flag from state property, fine.

Second, the "confederate general" is the reported founder of the KKK, even if we ignore that he was a Confederate general and fought a war that if won would have kept the black ancestors of the Memphis residents in slavery for perhaps generations longer. I'm not a Memphis resident, but I'm not really sure a monument and grave site owned by the City to the founder of the KKK is appropriate in a city that is over 60% black. I can't really blame them for wanting to move the grave. What exactly is a black resident of Memphis supposed to celebrate about the life of Nathan Bedford Forrest?

Secondly, you think it's alright to dig him up? Just because you disagree with him also he disbanded the KKK after it disolved into harassing blacks. In fact he was an advocate for black youths latter on to join law schools all over the country. Also the kkk was originally fourmed to protect southerners from the northerners raiders and criminals on their way up north after the war, when forest found out it disolved into harassing blacks he disbanded the order.

I just pointed out that we should ban the American flag also since it held slavery up a lot longer than the four years the confederates did and took the north in some states to officially end slavery until 1900's.

JasperL said:

Well, that's only partially correct. He stood for what WHITE people in Alabama wanted.

Blacks weren't allowed to register or vote or run for office or serve on juries because of the Jim Crow laws Wallace supported at that time. So he didn't have to answer to the black population. It's why that whole Voting Rights Act thing was needed - so that black citizens could exercise their basic civil right of voting.

It's incredible that defenders of the Jim Crow era and the Rebel flag don't get this. The complete ignorance of the shameful history of the South is pretty astounding.

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That is exactly my point. He stood for what was then white people as the law prohibited blacks from sitting down in many places. The things changed and so did Wallace and he did not change because it was politically expedient rather because he saw wrong and tried to right it starting with himself. Read your history and see what the Kennedys did not do for the civil rights movement back then!!

Excellent post, I posted something similar on the American flag after the Civil War. People don't know the history of this country because the truth is not taught because they are afraid to.

rhinefire said:

That is exactly my point. He stood for what was then white people as the law prohibited blacks from sitting down in many places. The things changed and so did Wallace and he did not change because it was politically expedient rather because he saw wrong and tried to right it starting with himself. Read your history and see what the Kennedys did not do for the civil rights movement back then!!

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Well, Wallace changed after he had to answer to both poor whites AND poor blacks. And that changed after the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act, and he bitterly, defiantly and vehemently opposed both of those pieces of legislation.

You said this: "Unlike the lying floor licking trash we have today in government that say anything to get elected George Wallace spoke from within and in my opinion was a damn good person."

So what he spoke from within was in defiant opposition to civil rights for black citizens of Alabama. After they got the right to vote and he had to answer to them, he spoke for them as well. I'm not sure we'll never know what was in his heart, but you can't look at history and give the guy much benefit of the doubt except (in the most generous interpretation) as an opportunistic politician who put his finger in the air, detected the direction the winds blew, and adopted that position, which at one time simply was antithetical to the idea that we all are born with "inalienable" rights. When he stood in front of the Rebel flag, he SAID he believed only WHITE residents were born with inalienable rights.

BTW, I don't know what the Kennedy's did NOT do. Please inform us what you're thinking of.

rhinefire said:

That is exactly my point. He stood for what was then white people as the law prohibited blacks from sitting down in many places. The things changed and so did Wallace and he did not change because it was politically expedient rather because he saw wrong and tried to right it starting with himself. ...

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Wallace was shifting slightly in the early 70's, (still opposed desegregated in some areas) -- but that bullet putting him in a wheelchair had a bit of an effect...

Also just so yall know the rebel flag is considered a battle flag of the confederates from 1861-1865 according to the pic below

rhinefire said:

Excellent post, I posted something similar on the American flag after the Civil War. People don't know the history of this country because the truth is not taught because they are afraid to.

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Was that directed at me? Why thanks if it was.

Ryriena said:

Secondly, you think it's alright to dig him up? Just because you disagree with him also he disbanded the KKK after it disolved into harassing blacks. In fact he was an advocate for black youths latter on to join law schools all over the country. Also the kkk was originally fourmed to protect southerners from the northerners raiders and criminals on their way up north after the war, when forest found out it disolved into harassing blacks he disbanded the order.

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I think it's "alright" for the majority of black residents of Memphis to make that decision for themselves.

If given a vote on it, I'm not sure how I'd vote, but I'm also white so understand my feelings about the man might be affected by that. As a black person, I'm not sure there's a lot about his life to celebrate. Had his side won, their ancestors would have remained in slavery for another generation or two at least, perhaps indefinitely. There are accounts that Forrest and others disbanded the KKK when they devolved into a terrorist group, but he never acknowledged being a member, being a founder, or being Grand Wizard, and certainly never wrote (as far as I know) that he had a direct hand in disbanding the group in protest or because of their terrorist activities against blacks and republicans at the polls.

But he was undoubtedly a complicated man like many of his era in the South (and North). So if they left the memorial and somewhere on site included a fairly balanced history of his complicated life, I wouldn't object to that either. But the bottom line is I don't have a problem with Memphis making either decision. It's possible to both recognize the complicated history of what was in many ways a great man and also not feel obligated to honor his life with a permanent memorial on government property.

I hate to bring up the Nazis but I'm sure there were many great and honorable men who fought for the Germans, but were simply fighting for their country. Many/most probably didn't support the Holocaust, might not have even really known what was happening. But I wouldn't object if a majority Jewish German town in 2015 decided to take down a monument to a brave and honorable Nazi General, erected by white, non-Jewish Germans in the aftermath of WWII.

I just pointed out that we should ban the American flag also since it held slavery up a lot longer than the four years the confederates did and took the north in some states to officially end slavery until 1900's.

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Slavery all across the U.S. ended in 1865 with the 13th Amendment.

No one is "banning" the Rebel flag. It's being taken down from state property.

Sorry, but the Rebel flag has a unique history as a symbol of defiance by elected leaders of SC (among other states) against efforts to end Jim Crow. No amount of red herrings erases that flag's recent (1940s-1960s) history.

Ryriena said:

Also just so yall know the rebel flag is considered a battle flag of the confederates from 1861-1865 according to the pic below
View attachment 67187202

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What the creator of flag said about that second one there, the Stainless Banner:

"As a people, we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the Whiteman over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematic of our cause...Such a flag would take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations and be hailed by the civilized world as the 'Whiteman's Flag.'"

The Battle flag was incorporated into the confederacy's second official flag :

"On May 1, 1863, the Confederate Congress adopted a second official flag that consisted of a battle flag in the upper left-hand corner on a field of white. Designed by William T. Thompson, editor of the Savannah Morning News, the flag was designated "Whiteman's Flag."

Article - Southern Changes Digital Archive

rhinefire said:

Question To All: Directly after the end of the Civil War what di the flag of the north represent in terms of equality for all? Equal rights for......? Maybe we should take down the other flag as well and start over.

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See, this is the problem. It depends on the person. For some it stands for liberty, for some, tyranny. Just like the confederate flag. Should we appease everyone who is offended? This issue defines the PC movement.

jonny5 said:

See, this is the problem. It depends on the person. For some it stands for liberty, for some, tyranny. Just like the confederate flag. Should we appease everyone who is offended?

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When SC raised the Rebel flag, no one had to guess that it meant the elected leaders opposed the end of Jim Crow, the CRA, the VRA, etc. It didn't depend on the person - that symbol meant something very specific - a continuation of segregation and second class citizenship for blacks. That's why whites all across the South all waved that flag when they needed a universal symbol for "Keep _____ White!" "Segregation Always!" Etc.

And what the Flag of the "North" (aka the American Flag) stood for should have been the ideals in the Constitution of the United States, which with the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendment was equal civil rights for blacks, something denied to them by Southern states who figuratively spat on the Constitution, the American flag, and the rights it protected. That's why the black marchers frequently carried the U.S. flag, and their opponents the Rebel flag.

Paperview said:

What the creator of flag said about that second one there, the Stainless Banner:

"As a people, we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the Whiteman over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematic of our cause...Such a flag would take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations and be hailed by the civilized world as the 'Whiteman's Flag.'"

The Battle flag was incorporated into the confederacy's second official flag :

"On May 1, 1863, the Confederate Congress adopted a second official flag that consisted of a battle flag in the upper left-hand corner on a field of white. Designed by William T. Thompson, editor of the Savannah Morning News, the flag was designated "Whiteman's Flag."

Article - Southern Changes Digital Archive

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And I just pointed out that it was a battle flag not the original confederate flagThis is the flag flown during the war.

Ryriena said:

And I just pointed out that it was a battle flag not the original confederate flag

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Your own graphic notes it was a battle flag AND the Second national flag of the CSA. It's a mystery what your point is either way.

JasperL said:

Your own graphic notes it was a battle flag AND the Second national flag of the CSA. It's a mystery what your point is either way.

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The flag was not a secondary flag in fact it was not codified at all by the confederate states of America the soldiers used them.

Ryriena said:

The flag was not a secondary flag in fact it was not codified at all by the confederate states of America the soldiers used them.

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OK, I'm not sure that's true but I still am missing the point.

The particular flag flown over the capital of SC has a particular and unique history during the civil rights era, and I don't see how the several other various flags of the Confederacy relate to the history of the rebel flag.

JasperL said:

OK, I'm not sure that's true but I still am missing the point.

The particular flag flown over the capital of SC has a particular and unique history during the civil rights era, and I don't see how the several other various flags of the Confederacy relate to the history of the rebel flag.

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That is the truth actually, and yes the Tennessee true cross flag in South Carolina was at a memorile not even on state property the media are lying to you. I talked to people from their about this to be sure, and people need to face facts symbols changes meaning all the time looking at the Naiz symbol for example was actually a symbolme from many cultures meaning peace and love. Now the south has used the flags as symbols for pride of where we were born. Life long southerner and proud

Ryriena said:

That is the truth actually, and yes the Tennessee true cross flag in South Carolina was at a memorile not even on state property the media are lying to you. I talked to people from their about this to be sure, and people need to face facts symbols changes meaning all the time looking at the Naiz symbol for example was actually a symbolme from many cultures meaning peace and love. Now the south has used the flags as symbols for pride of where we were born. Life long southerner and proud

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No, the media aren't lying to me. There's a reason the STATE LEGISLATURE voted to take down the flag, and it was because it was on state property under state jurisdiction.

And sure, symbols change meaning, but that particular symbol was used by the STATE as a signal of its opposition to civil rights for blacks, same way Georgia used it, Wallace, the KKK, many whites protesting the civil rights marches, etc. If you're a southerner and have to have a symbol of your Southern Heritage, pick one that isn't intimately tied to elected leaders of your "Southern Heritage" that fought for a century to keep blacks oppressed. I'm shameful of that part of my "Southern Heritage" and will have nothing to do with a symbol of it.

JasperL said:

No, the media aren't lying to me. There's a reason the STATE LEGISLATURE voted to take down the flag, and it was because it was on state property under state jurisdiction.

And sure, symbols change meaning, but that particular symbol was used by the STATE as a signal of its opposition to civil rights for blacks, same way Georgia used it, Wallace, the KKK, many whites protesting the civil rights marches, etc. If you're a southerner and have to have a symbol of your Southern Heritage, pick one that isn't intimately tied to elected leaders of your "Southern Heritage" that fought for a century to keep blacks oppressed. I'm shameful of that part of my "Southern Heritage" and will have nothing to do with a symbol of it.

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So basically the blame the south card for all the racism and slavery in the U.S.... I guess they really made you feel guilty for something you had no part in sweetie. I see no reason, why I should feel ashamed for something that was considered common since the biblical times and still is common to this day. Also you forget it was not just whites that sold people into slavery so did blacks in the USA. In fact, most slavers in Africa where blacks Africans from a diffrent tribe.