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SC Confederate Flag Taken Down From State Capitol in South Carolina

HorseLoverGirl said:
I answered you, TWICE now. Why is that not clear to you?
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These responses do not answer the question below, in bold:

HorseLoverGirl said:
I told you that my flying the flag, and other sane Southerners doing the same, is NOT "disrespectful" because it is our HERITAGE, not hate for others. Do you finally understand?
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HorseLoverGirl said:
Also the flag stands for HERITAGE, not hate.
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Lursa said:
Not only that, several generations of racists have publicly used that flag to symbolize their racist beliefs.

These are facts. This is a symbol of that factual dehumanization and racism for many many people...including white people.

If it's so offensive for us to disrespect *your* view of the flag, why isnt it just as disrespectful of you and those that agree with you to want to keep that symbol of degradation and racism for others?
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Just admit the hypocrisy and we can move on if you dont have an answer.
 
Risky Thicket said:
All of my life and that of my family the battle flag has been a symbol of Southern pride. I can only recall a relatively few times in my life that I saw the flag portrayed in a racist hateful manner. Never did it ever occur to me or my family or my friends or neighbors that the flag represented racism. To us it represents pride in Southern heritage and culture, a culture distinct from other parts of America.
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My point was that to many, and especially including blacks, the flag has always been stained by those who rose that particular flag and fought first for slavery (certainly a CSA victory meant slavery indefinitely in the South), and then in our lifetime against civil rights for blacks. I don't presume to know what it means to YOU. For a long time it meant nothing sinister to me either. But when I understood its recent history (e.g. the adoption of it by the segregationist Dixiecrats in 1948, etc.) I could no longer pretend that it actually was a benign symbol of Southern Heritage or whatever, any more than we can pretend that the swastika hasn't been forever tainted by the Nazis use of that once noble symbol.

But even if you disagree with the latter, there is no doubt that many don't share your view of the Rebel flag and that for good and easily documented historical reasons it is highly offensive to them because it was under that banner that their ancestors were oppressed. So for me it's nothing more than common courtesy and a sign of respect to pick another symbol if I need to express love for the South.

You may feel anyway you wish about the flag, but you may not tell me how me and mine and most Southern people I know feel about the flag. From the beginning of the flag hysteria I have supported South Carolina and its decision.
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I've not meant to do that - just meant to point out that the view of it as benign/noble/positive is far from universal and the alternate view is rational and defensible because it is based on the easily documented recent history of that particular flag, not on some prejudice or irrational hatred of the South or whatever.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
I answered you, TWICE now. Why is that not clear to you?
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Let's put it this way. You know the flag is offensive to many people, at least a solid majority of blacks. There can be no question about it.

So if a black family invites you to their AME church next week, or to a family cookout, do you wear your Rebel flag scarf, to match your rebel flag purse? I can't imagine you would and it doesn't matter at all what the flag means to you. Those of us with common courtesy and respect for others don't wear or wave things we know offend a large share of the population. So why can it possibly be OK for the state to figuratively do the same thing? Seems indefensible to me.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
Read the book. It will explain everything that kids are not being taught today.
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AGAIN: No matter how you try, ma'am, you cannot get around the words of the leaders themselves. They would have know better than anyone else the 'why' of the secession and the war.
 
Harman said:
Seattle is notorious for having an offensively white population

Seattle Magazine | Arts & Culture/News & Features | Is Seattle Too White?
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When you know what you're talking about when it comes to Seattle, then come back to us.

FYI, you can find idiots and racists in any group...but up here, it's under control...which is not the case Down South. Up here, if a biracial couple's walking down the street, no one blinks an eye - it's normal here. But in the MS Delta where I come from, if there's a biracial couple, they ain't local - they're certainly from out of town.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
AGAIN: No matter how you try, ma'am, you cannot get around the words of the leaders themselves. They would have know better than anyone else the 'why' of the secession and the war.
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The book is nothing more than a sermon for the Lost Cause faithful.

Not a scrap of valid scholarly historical information it. It's written by two brothers (the Kennedy boys, as they're called) who are White Supremacist / Nationalists, and founded the Hate Group The League of the South

Reputable historians dismiss it entirely.

I think it's the only book she ever read on the subject, and I wouldn't doubt she's either spoken or typed the words: "Read The South Was Right" at least a half a million times now. I'm not joking.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
When you know what you're talking about when it comes to Seattle, then come back to us.

FYI, you can find idiots and racists in any group...but up here, it's under control...which is not the case Down South. Up here, if a biracial couple's walking down the street, no one blinks an eye - it's normal here. But in the MS Delta where I come from, if there's a biracial couple, they ain't local - they're certainly from out of town.
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That's not true.

There are lots of Black Man white girl couples down south. More so than anywhere else
 
Either way the flag is no longer going to fly on government property. For the people who believe it represents Southern pride (and I know a lot who do) you may fly one on your property. For those who wish to fly the flag for white supremacy you may also fly it on your property along with a swastika. That is your right and freedom. I along with millions of other Americans are willing to fight and die for your right to do so either way. For those who fought to remove the flag because it offended people I support your cause. For those of you who fought to remove the flag to satisfy your sick need to force your will upon others be wary of people like me.

Now why don't we start a thread on how we will go about eliminating the slavery that still exist today around the world and right here in this country. Whether you know it or not slavery is still a part of this country and the mistreating of people by those who have power and authority is still wrong. While they may not be wearing chains they are still enslaved. Whether by a bully at the bus stop or the gang controlling a neighborhood. Even the rich who have house keepers and gardeners from across the border and work for less than minimum wage and out of fear of deportation are enslaving people. It is all just as wrong.
 
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Glen Contrarian said:
AGAIN: No matter how you try, ma'am, you cannot get around the words of the leaders themselves. They would have know better than anyone else the 'why' of the secession and the war.
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Yep the state's right to decide the issue for themselves bothered the yanks. We know that.
 
Harman said:
That's not true.

There are lots of Black Man white girl couples down south. More so than anywhere else
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Then you haven't been to the Delta. I've been there almost every year (until last year) since I left back in 1981 and I have yet to see a biracial couple there. Having grown up there, I know why. Maybe you haven't made the connection yet...or you have, and don't want to admit it.
 
Paperview said:
The book is nothing more than a sermon for the Lost Cause faithful.

Not a scrap of valid scholarly historical information it. It's written by two brothers (the Kennedy boys, as they're called) who are White Supremacist / Nationalists, and founded the Hate Group The League of the South

Reputable historians dismiss it entirely.

I think it's the only book she ever read on the subject, and I wouldn't doubt she's either spoken or typed the words: "Read The South Was Right" at least a half a million times now. I'm not joking.
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Yeah, you're right - I'm wasting my time, just as I was trying to get my family Down South to get past their pride and racism.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
Yep the state's right to decide the issue for themselves bothered the yanks. We know that.
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No, in THEIR words it was slavery. You've just changed 'slavery' to 'states rights'...and if a rebellion is successful, then it was a right...but if it ain't successful, then it's treason.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Then you haven't been to the Delta. I've been there almost every year (until last year) since I left back in 1981 and I have yet to see a biracial couple there. Having grown up there, I know why. Maybe you haven't made the connection yet...or you have, and don't want to admit it.
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Risky Thicket said:
All of my life and that of my family the battle flag has been a symbol of Southern pride. I can only recall a relatively few times in my life that I saw the flag portrayed in a racist hateful manner. Never did it ever occur to me or my family or my friends or neighbors that the flag represented racism. To us it represents pride in Southern heritage and culture, a culture distinct from other parts of America.

You may feel anyway you wish about the flag, but you may not tell me how me and mine and most Southern people I know feel about the flag. From the beginning of the flag hysteria I have supported South Carolina and its decision.
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I trolled a few people on Raw story about the flags on Alabama, I believe they actually believed I was a uneducated redneck lmao. However, just because something is outlawed Jasper doesn't mean it is truly abolished that just means it just goes underground to crime lords or sex trafficking or child slavery. I saw an law and order special victims unit episode on this issuse.

All my life, my parents have told me the symbol is of pride of, where I was born ie the south. Several blacks see this flag here as that too including a former president NAACP who was fired mind you.
 
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Ryriena said:
I trolled a few people on Raw story about the flags on Alabama, I believe they actually believed I was a uneducated redneck lmao. However, just because something is outlawed Jasper doesn't mean it is truly abolished that just means it just goes underground to crime lords or sex trafficking or child slavery. I saw an law and order special victims unit episode on this issuse.

All my life, my parents have told me the symbol is of pride of, where I was born ie the south. Several blacks see this flag here as that too including a former president NAACP who was fired mind you.
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I grew up in the very deepest of the Deep South - the MS Delta - about 5 miles away from our family cemetery where my direct line all the way back to the 1870's lay. So don't think you're the only one who knows a thing or two about Southern heritage - some of us here have very deep roots there too, and mine are deeper than most.

I used to love that flag, too, and the Southern heritage I thought it stood for. But now - thanks to having access to material they never dared teach us in school, I know better.
 
Ryriena said:
I trolled a few people on Raw story about the flags on Alabama, I believe they actually believed I was a uneducated redneck lmao. However, just because something is outlawed Jasper doesn't mean it is truly abolished that just means it just goes underground to crime lords or sex trafficking or child slavery. I saw an law and order special victims unit episode on this issuse.

All my life, my parents have told me the symbol is of pride of, where I was born ie the south. Several blacks see this flag here as that too including a former president NAACP who was fired mind you.
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No idea what the Law and Order reference means, but I don't quarrel with the idea that it means different things to different people. But that's sort of the point - it does mean different things to different people and flying a flag offensive to MANY, especially including blacks whose ancestors were oppressed by leaders marching under that flag, doesn't square with what it means to me to be a Southerner, which is we show respect to others and extend to them basic common courtesies. So, the thought of flying the Rebel flag never occurs to me.

BTW, the NAACP former Pres. is interesting but his view of the Confederate flag just is a minority among blacks.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
No, in THEIR words it was slavery. You've just changed 'slavery' to 'states rights'...and if a rebellion is successful, then it was a right...but if it ain't successful, then it's treason.
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I doubt she knows what the term "primary source" document means in the context of historical research.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
I grew up in the very deepest of the Deep South - the MS Delta - about 5 miles away from our family cemetery where my direct line all the way back to the 1870's lay. So don't think you're the only one who knows a thing or two about Southern heritage - some of us here have very deep roots there too, and mine are deeper than most.

I used to love that flag, too, and the Southern heritage I thought it stood for. But now - thanks to having access to material they never dared teach us in school, I know better.
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That's pretty cool Glen!!!
 
Glen Contrarian said:
No, in THEIR words it was slavery. You've just changed 'slavery' to 'states rights'...and if a rebellion is successful, then it was a right...but if it ain't successful, then it's treason.
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Yeah right, somehow the definition of words changes because of the outcome? In no dictionary ever.
 
Paperview said:
The book is nothing more than a sermon for the Lost Cause faithful.

Not a scrap of valid scholarly historical information it. It's written by two brothers (the Kennedy boys, as they're called) who are White Supremacist / Nationalists, and founded the Hate Group The League of the South

Reputable historians dismiss it entirely.

I think it's the only book she ever read on the subject, and I wouldn't doubt she's either spoken or typed the words: "Read The South Was Right" at least a half a million times now. I'm not joking.
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Now we know why the South is demonized. Historians dismiss truth. I learned that lesson early on.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
I know what primary sources are. People who don't want to understand the South deny said primary sources.
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Kind of like how you ignore how many times the issue of slavery was mentioned in the southern states announcements to suceede from the union.

Also if you really knew about the history of the civil war, you would realize that the issue of whether to stay in the union or fight for the confederacy was a tough personal choice.

One of the best generals in the civil war was general George Henry Thomas, "the rock of chickamauga" and like Robert e. Lee he was a native of Virginia. Unlike Lee, Thomas fought on the side of the union.


What does that make Thomas in your mind?
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
How did you get that from me saying I would never eat a particular French dish since it made me sick the last time I ate it? Sure I would rather be on my own than ruled by someone else but the British and French are not that bad. After all our neighbors to the North are still primarily British and French in one province and life ain't that bad from what I saw while visiting :)
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If the Brits are not as bad, then why did Indians rebelled against them?
 
Harman said:
without full blooded white people there would be no white supremacy and thus no old south.

the old south is predicated on having a white supermajority.
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So the South cannot stand unless white supremacy rules the area.
 
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