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U.S. South Carolina House Approves Bill to Remove Confederate Flag

Also a general question to HorseLoverGirl,

What "should" have happened in the Civil War period according to your world view? How would America be better off today if the South had won, or if the Fed had simply let the South split off into a separate country?

I'm in no way trying to be antagonistic, I'm just extremely curious about your view point. As radical as it seems to many of us, you certainly have the right to hold it, and to share it with the world.

My questions are aimed at prompting you to be a little more specific on how and why you hold the views you do. So far, all I've gotten from you is that you base your world view on this subject from what your Grandfather told you, and what you read in some magazines and one book that you mentioned.

I would be very interested in hearing some more detailed opinions on the historical documents that you apparently view differently than some other posters (including myself). What's your take on secession declarations for instance? If the southern states were really going to abolish slavery on their own, what historical clues give you that impression? What do you think the time line would have been for the south independently abolishing slavery, and how would a historical time line altered in such a way be beneficial to modern Americans? Perhaps a historical quote or two to help us all understand where your coming from?

In short, what exactly is your argument? Should the Emancipation Proclamation never have been issued? Do you see that action as tyranny?

Also, what "state right" was the South fighting for other than slavery?
 
free_think said:
Is it really that the fed was trying to force the south to do away with slavery in established slave states, or rather that they were attempting to halt the spread of slavery into the new U.S. Territories?

How was the fed trying to force the south to abolish slavery at the onset of the Civil War? Please be specific, because I'm extremely curious about this argument.

I do know that some northern states weren't cooperating fully with the fugitive slave act, and were charging fees for the return of run away slaves that ended up in their states. Is this what you mean by the unfair "tariffs" levied against the south? If not, what tariffs are you referring to?

Please answer specifically. I'm trying to understand your argument. If we need a history lesson, give us one. Preferably one rooted in some sort of documented historical fact. Thanks.
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Well even if the yanks were trying to force the South to get rid of slavery (while keeping it themselves) the yanks also knew that if the South won, they were screwed. The yanks were gonna have BIG problems when their ports froze over in the winter and they had to rely on the South. Don't think for one second that the South was gonna forget about the tariffs levied on them to pay for the War of 1812. The states who charged the South out the wazoo to comply with the law were part of the problem.
 
free_think said:
Also a general question to HorseLoverGirl,

What "should" have happened in the Civil War period according to your world view? How would America be better off today if the South had won, or if the Fed had simply let the South split off into a separate country?

I'm in no way trying to be antagonistic, I'm just extremely curious about your view point. As radical as it seems to many of us, you certainly have the right to hold it, and to share it with the world.

My questions are aimed at prompting you to be a little more specific on how and why you hold the views you do. So far, all I've gotten from you is that you base your world view on this subject from what your Grandfather told you, and what you read in some magazines and one book that you mentioned.

I would be very interested in hearing some more detailed opinions on the historical documents that you apparently view differently than some other posters (including myself). What's your take on secession declarations for instance? If the southern states were really going to abolish slavery on their own, what historical clues give you that impression? What do you think the time line would have been for the south independently abolishing slavery, and how would a historical time line altered in such a way be beneficial to modern Americans? Perhaps a historical quote or two to help us all understand where your coming from?

In short, what exactly is your argument? Should the Emancipation Proclamation never have been issued? Do you see that action as tyranny?

Also, what "state right" was the South fighting for other than slavery?
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Honestly the majority of the people in the north weren't wanting to go to war in the first place, and I still think Lincoln got bullied into it by his secretary of war stanton. This country would be better off because frankly the feds would have a lot less power than they do and the states would have more say, at least if things played out like the South hoped. I think the states were saying when they seceded that they had the right to keep slavery legal and it should be a state issue (hmmmmm just like everything else lately!) Slavery was on its way out anyway but it wasn't gonna happen overnight. Only about 15% of Southerners owned slaves to begin with, so it wasn't near as rampant as the yanks have rewritten the books to make it look. As for how time would have been altered, there really is no way to know. Its about like saying what if 9/11, WW2 or OKC had never happened? Significant events in history always have people wondering "what if." The "emancipation proclamation" if you want to call it that, wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. It only freed the slaves in the South, not the ones still held in the north.
 
civilwarbingo.jpg
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
Honestly the majority of the people in the north weren't wanting to go to war in the first place, and I still think Lincoln got bullied into it by his secretary of war stanton. This country would be better off because frankly the feds would have a lot less power than they do and the states would have more say, at least if things played out like the South hoped. I think the states were saying when they seceded that they had the right to keep slavery legal and it should be a state issue (hmmmmm just like everything else lately!) Slavery was on its way out anyway but it wasn't gonna happen overnight. Only about 15% of Southerners owned slaves to begin with, so it wasn't near as rampant as the yanks have rewritten the books to make it look. As for how time would have been altered, there really is no way to know. Its about like saying what if 9/11, WW2 or OKC had never happened? Significant events in history always have people wondering "what if." The "emancipation proclamation" if you want to call it that, wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. It only freed the slaves in the South, not the ones still held in the north.
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Ok, but can't you see that had they just left that indefensible institution out of it, they'd had credibility?
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
Slavery was on its way out anyway.
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Hypothetical. Nevertheless, it was on their platform throughout the war. That is what cost them the loss. Had it merely been state sovereignty, then nations like France and Britain may have allied with the south, (slavery already illegal in those two nations), they did both have very good textile trade with the southern states, and the outcome may have been different.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
Its not rocket science. Its just as stupid to blame a flag as it would be to blame a tshirt. Get it?
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You haven't established in any manner how weight-lifting facility influenced Roof to kill 9 Blacks in a church.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
More like the state's right to remain a slave state without the feds trying to force them to change against their will
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You can say that, the problem is that the historical record is clearly against your contention. All of the leaders of the Confederacy cited slavery as essential and primary to their system. Further, "states rights" is the focus shift made by modern Lost Cause revisionists, like JR Kennedy, who you cited previously.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
You can say that, the problem is that the historical record is clearly against your contention. All of the leaders of the Confederacy cited slavery as essential and primary to their system. Further, "states rights" is the focus shift made by modern Lost Cause revisionists, like JR Kennedy, who you cited previously.
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Jeff Davis and Robert E. Lee could come from the heavens themselves and say to her: No, you've got it wrong, we really were fighting to maintain and expand slavery as our single most important cause --

and she still wouldn't believe it.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
You can say that, the problem is that the historical record is clearly against your contention. All of the leaders of the Confederacy cited slavery as essential and primary to their system. Further, "states rights" is the focus shift made by modern Lost Cause revisionists, like JR Kennedy, who you cited previously.
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WOW you are the one who loves the revisionist junk that passes for "history"
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
WOW you are the one who loves the revisionist junk that passes for "history"
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How did you come to that conclusion?

I mean, i would LOVE to believe that the south didn't go to WAR for SLAVERY because it's a pretty dark period of our history. Do you think yanks just made this up, out of thin air, just to make you look bad or something?
 
Paperview said:
Jeff Davis and Robert E. Lee could come from the heavens themselves and say to her: No, you've got it wrong, we really were fighting to maintain and expand slavery as our single most important cause --

and she still wouldn't believe it.
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How funny you would spew that when you're still wrong.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Antietam... Stones river... Gettysburg... Vicksburg... Chattanooga

The south lost these battles.

Or is that revisionist history?

The south also lost because of the union blockade.
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Yeah how about the hundreds of times the South kicked yankee ass and the yanks went away with their tails between their legs in defeat? LOT more than the yanks ever "won"
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
Yeah how about the hundreds of times the South kicked yankee ass and the yanks went away with their tails between their legs in defeat? LOT more than the yanks ever "won"
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The south lost battles that decided the war.

The battles of Antietam and Vicksburg were two of those battles.
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
Yeah how about the hundreds of times the South kicked yankee ass and the yanks went away with their tails between their legs in defeat? LOT more than the yanks ever "won"
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They won many battles, but they did indeed lose the war..........

Men went to war for "various reasons" but one of the results (had the won) would have been the continuance of slavery regardless of those reasons......
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
Yeah how about the hundreds of times the South kicked yankee ass and the yanks went away with their tails between their legs in defeat? LOT more than the yanks ever "won"
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What does this post prove except that you willfully misrepresent history on behalf of your personal pride?
 
DCJ said:
They won many battles, but they did indeed lose the war..........

Men went to war for "various reasons" but one of the results (had the won) would have been the continuance of slavery regardless of those reasons......
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BULL. From the President's own mouth:
11701169_870992562948391_7211338750161652024_n.jpg
 
Absentglare said:
How did you come to that conclusion?

I mean, i would LOVE to believe that the south didn't go to WAR for SLAVERY because it's a pretty dark period of our history. Do you think yanks just made this up, out of thin air, just to make you look bad or something?
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11701169_870992562948391_7211338750161652024_n.jpg
 
HorseLoverGirl said:
You miss the point, AGAIN
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The point is that your argument, like every argument I have seen you produce, relies on ignorance of the subject. You refuse to accept what Roof said prior to and during the shooting, you refuse to accept that it was racially motivated, you refuse to acknowledge that his ideology was White Nationalist ideology from the Council of Conservative Citizens, that like many racist hate groups in the South utilizes Confederate symbolism and shares that ideology. It has nothing to do with Golds Gym, your point is invalid, you know it and are simply using it as a means to distract....because you are not interested in debating or ultimately having to defend the racism that is the central, essential center of the Confederacy.
 
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