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GOP leaders fear damage to party’s image as Donald Trump doubles down

I am being reasonable and rational. They come here for work, which is why the numbers slowed to a net negative during the depths of the recession. If you don't solve the work problem, you won't solve the illegal immigration "problem" which seems obvious to me is a feature, not a bug, of our larger immigration/border approach.

Either party could have implemented very strict legal status verification requirements with steep penalties for employers who violate them, AND the personnel to enforce those laws. But none of either party have done that. I've since lost the article, but during the Bush admin someone figured out the total number of employers hit with violations for a two year period. The bottom line is it amounted to less than 3 total violations per employee per two years. I promise I could ride my bike to a dozen illegal, criminal employers by lunch - hotels, any landscape company, any lawn mowing company, most construction crews, the dairy farmers about 30 miles away, the tomato farmers in the next county, the few remaining tobacco farmers.....

Part of the problem is the decision to make employers an extension of ICE. The Obama Administration has doubled down on that expectation. I go to great lengths to insure every employee is legal. However, why should an employer be required to be a document expert? Democrats have stood in the way of making E-Verify the primary method to verify legal status, and protect employers.

E-Verify divides House panel along party lines - Jessica Meyers - POLITICO.com

I absolutely agree that an employer who knowingly hires an illegal should be hammered by penalties, including jail and confiscation of assets.
 
Deflect all you want, the facts are facts.

Fact are facts...the only president to give banket amnesty to illegal immigrants is Republican hero Ronald Reagan.
 
Do you have any evidence whatsoever for this "massive influx" of illegals in the past two years.

I'm willing to acknowledge evidence, but I'm not going to take your word for it.

I don't respond well to silly demands. The massive influx of women, children, and families over the last two years has been headlines in newspapers and TV. The country is building holding centers for them. You clearly are aware of this.
 
Donald Trump is akin to Frankenstein's monster. The Republicans are Frankenstein. Trump has incorporated the ugliest elements of Republican ideology into his campaign. He has gained traction because for decades Republicans have fostered those elements in the conservative base. Behold your creation, Republicans, and despair.
 
Fact are facts...the only president to give banket amnesty to illegal immigrants is Republican hero Ronald Reagan.

Blanket amnesty, yes, Ronald Reagan. "Fool me once...." Who is the most recent President to try to unilaterally provide amnesty? "fool me twice..."
 
I don't respond well to silly demands. The massive influx of women, children, and families over the last two years has been headlines in newspapers and TV. The country is building holding centers for them. You clearly are aware of this.

You said the Pew numbers were "laughable at best." That's a statement that is either supported by some evidence or it isn't, and it's not a "silly demand" to see that evidence. You made the claim and should be able to back it up.

Yes, we had or have? a problem with children coming here. They strain the system because unlike adults, we can't just dump them somewhere, they can't blend into the population, get a job, etc. so require government housing and care until we resolve their cases, which is in short supply because of the already record numbers we're running through the system. But those temporary housing shortages don't provide any evidence about the total number of illegals in America, which is what the Pew figures represent.

It's not just Pew. I've looked and seen other estimates that vary from Pews (some have larger numbers) but the trends are remarkably similar, reaching a peak then hitting negative or flat numbers with the recession. As I said, I'm open to evidence proving Pew wrong, but your say so isn't actually evidence, nor are some newspaper articles about a particular problem of children making the trek.
 
Part of the problem is the decision to make employers an extension of ICE. The Obama Administration has doubled down on that expectation. I go to great lengths to insure every employee is legal. However, why should an employer be required to be a document expert? Democrats have stood in the way of making E-Verify the primary method to verify legal status, and protect employers.

E-Verify divides House panel along party lines - Jessica Meyers - POLITICO.com

I absolutely agree that an employer who knowingly hires an illegal should be hammered by penalties, including jail and confiscation of assets.

If we're serious about immigration, that bolded will be required.

Along the lines of the rest of your post is where the serious discussions have to take place, such as what is the burden we should place on employers. I think it's obvious reasonable people can differ and the answer really does depend on a look at the big picture.

The thing I was pushing back on is this partisan bullcrap. This problem didn't start with Obama. There isn't a single statistic backed by evidence that indicates the problem has grown significantly worse in the past few years. If you want to claim that's in spite of Obama's efforts instead of because of them, fine. Sure, he's been pushed hard on the immigration issue by the GOP. But when the GOP had the reins, Bush and a lot of establishment GOPers backed by the Chamber boys tried to pass another amnesty, so don't pretend that this problem begins and ends with those with a D by their name. There's plenty of fault to go around, and the big obstacle are the millions of jobs filled by low wage, hard working, disposable immigrant labor.
 
You said the Pew numbers were "laughable at best." That's a statement that is either supported by some evidence or it isn't, and it's not a "silly demand" to see that evidence. You made the claim and should be able to back it up.

Yes, we had or have? a problem with children coming here. They strain the system because unlike adults, we can't just dump them somewhere, they can't blend into the population, get a job, etc. so require government housing and care until we resolve their cases, which is in short supply because of the already record numbers we're running through the system. But those temporary housing shortages don't provide any evidence about the total number of illegals in America, which is what the Pew figures represent.

It's not just Pew. I've looked and seen other estimates that vary from Pews (some have larger numbers) but the trends are remarkably similar, reaching a peak then hitting negative or flat numbers with the recession. As I said, I'm open to evidence proving Pew wrong, but your say so isn't actually evidence, nor are some newspaper articles about a particular problem of children making the trek.

I know from my own experience that the number of illegal aliens can't possibly be what Pew consistently reports. I've looked very closely at how these numbers are created. I've also found a number of studies that demonstrate the number is significantly higher than Pew reports.

Illegal Aliens Estimated at 20 to 38 Million | Californians For Population Stabilization

Analysis of Illegal immigration invasion numbers by Fred Elbel - Desert Invasion U.S.

The Social Contract - The Challenge of Accurately Estimating the Population of Illegal Immigrants

So tell me specifically which methodology detailed in the links above is unsound, or not legitimate when attempting to calculate the number of illegal aliens living in the US.
 
If we're serious about immigration, that bolded will be required.

Along the lines of the rest of your post is where the serious discussions have to take place, such as what is the burden we should place on employers. I think it's obvious reasonable people can differ and the answer really does depend on a look at the big picture.

The thing I was pushing back on is this partisan bullcrap. This problem didn't start with Obama. There isn't a single statistic backed by evidence that indicates the problem has grown significantly worse in the past few years. If you want to claim that's in spite of Obama's efforts instead of because of them, fine. Sure, he's been pushed hard on the immigration issue by the GOP. But when the GOP had the reins, Bush and a lot of establishment GOPers backed by the Chamber boys tried to pass another amnesty, so don't pretend that this problem begins and ends with those with a D by their name. There's plenty of fault to go around, and the big obstacle are the millions of jobs filled by low wage, hard working, disposable immigrant labor.

The only legislative body that has passed any immigration reform was the Republican majority led Congress that passed IIRIRA and Clinton signed in 1996. Cut through the minutia and the politicking that sinks immigration reform. When they tried to get Amnesty placed into previous efforts, I would like to think the millions of Republicans like myself made it very clear their political careers would end if they attempted to provide amnesty.

Let's be very frank. All it takes to learn what this is all about to Democrats is to suggest support for Amnesty would be forthcoming provided every illegal alien seeking amnesty would forfeit their right to vote for at least 20 years. Heads explode at the mention of the idea.
 
Donald Trump is akin to Frankenstein's monster. The Republicans are Frankenstein. Trump has incorporated the ugliest elements of Republican ideology into his campaign. He has gained traction because for decades Republicans have fostered those elements in the conservative base. Behold your creation, Republicans, and despair.

He use to be a democrat, the more he opens his mouth, the better Hillary's odds. ;)
 
I know from my own experience that the number of illegal aliens can't possibly be what Pew consistently reports. I've looked very closely at how these numbers are created. I've also found a number of studies that demonstrate the number is significantly higher than Pew reports.

Illegal Aliens Estimated at 20 to 38 Million | Californians For Population Stabilization

Analysis of Illegal immigration invasion numbers by Fred Elbel - Desert Invasion U.S.

The Social Contract - The Challenge of Accurately Estimating the Population of Illegal Immigrants

So tell me specifically which methodology detailed in the links above is unsound, or not legitimate when attempting to calculate the number of illegal aliens living in the US.

OK, but if we accept the number is (e.g.) 20 million or even 38 million, your assertion was there has been a flood of illegals in the last two years. All those estimates are years old, dating to the mid to late Bush administration. I still don't have any way to evaluate your claim, backed by no evidence at all.
 
The only legislative body that has passed any immigration reform was the Republican majority led Congress that passed IIRIRA and Clinton signed in 1996. Cut through the minutia and the politicking that sinks immigration reform. When they tried to get Amnesty placed into previous efforts, I would like to think the millions of Republicans like myself made it very clear their political careers would end if they attempted to provide amnesty.

Let's be very frank. All it takes to learn what this is all about to Democrats is to suggest support for Amnesty would be forthcoming provided every illegal alien seeking amnesty would forfeit their right to vote for at least 20 years. Heads explode at the mention of the idea.

OK, your team is better than the other team. I don't see any point engaging with that.

And you mentioned the idea and my head didn't even swell a little bit, much less explode. :roll:
 
OK, but if we accept the number is (e.g.) 20 million or even 38 million, your assertion was there has been a flood of illegals in the last two years. All those estimates are years old, dating to the mid to late Bush administration. I still don't have any way to evaluate your claim, backed by no evidence at all.

So you want it known that you are not aware of the illegal alien border crisis of the last two years? Really? It seems hard to believe someone would not know about that, yet be on a thread involving illegal alien border issues.

They even have a wiki page for it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_American_immigration_crisis
 
OK, your team is better than the other team. I don't see any point engaging with that.

And you mentioned the idea and my head didn't even swell a little bit, much less explode. :roll:

:doh

Did I suggest your head would explode?

Do some research on the subject of illegal aliens and then perhaps a more beneficial discussion could take place.
 
So you want it known that you are not aware of the illegal alien border crisis of the last two years? Really? It seems hard to believe someone would not know about that, yet be on a thread involving illegal alien border issues.

They even have a wiki page for it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_American_immigration_crisis

But what you're complaining about is a large group that was apprehended and is working the way through the system. I'm not sure what you expect the Obama administration to do.

And we've had by your own accounts 100s of thousands at least per year, and by some of your estimates 4 million a year, crossing before the evil Obama and the evil Democrats took over immigration. But all you want to do is play partisan politics with an issue that's been going on for decades, through democratic and republican administrations, by your own links.
 
:doh

Did I suggest your head would explode?

Do some research on the subject of illegal aliens and then perhaps a more beneficial discussion could take place.

"Let's be very frank. All it takes to learn what this is all about to Democrats is to suggest support for Amnesty would be forthcoming provided every illegal alien seeking amnesty would forfeit their right to vote for at least 20 years. Heads explode at the mention of the idea."

????
 
But what you're complaining about is a large group that was apprehended and is working the way through the system. I'm not sure what you expect the Obama administration to do.

And we've had by your own accounts 100s of thousands at least per year, and by some of your estimates 4 million a year, crossing before the evil Obama and the evil Democrats took over immigration. But all you want to do is play partisan politics with an issue that's been going on for decades, through democratic and republican administrations, by your own links.


Umm. It's clear you are not up to speed on the issue, on who was apprehended, how many were not apprehended, and it would seem, not much in general on the subject. That makes it rather difficult to have any meaningful discussion.
 
"Let's be very frank. All it takes to learn what this is all about to Democrats is to suggest support for Amnesty would be forthcoming provided every illegal alien seeking amnesty would forfeit their right to vote for at least 20 years. Heads explode at the mention of the idea."

????

Really? You think that implies I thought your head would explode? I think we are done here. Have a nice day. :peace
 
i doubt that he'll have much impact on the eventual nominee of either party.
 
LOL illegals have proven they're liars how? They're invited here by thousands, maybe 10s of thousands of employers offering them good jobs for an honest day's labor. Did those in Mexico when Reagan signed amnesty take an oath not to come and take the jobs our employers offer them by the MILLIONS? Can you show us this pledge? The bottom line is as long as we offer illegals MILLIONS of jobs when they get here, which is what we've done for decades, they will ALWAYS find a way to cross the border. The rewards are too great and there is really little reason for a person looking for a better life not to try.

They have to lie to get work right?

And if you could post a link showing the widespread issue of employers "offering" employment to illegals and how that is done? Is it over Mexican TV? Newspaper ads "get across the Rio Grande and we will hire you?"

As for the sudden need to document what has been fact...here:



According to the Government Accountability Office (GAO), different estimates of the total number of illegal immigrants vary depending on how the term is defined.[13] There are also questions about data reliability.[13] The GAO has stated, "it seems clear that the population of illegal foreign-born persons is large and has increased rapidly."[13] On April 26, 2006 the Pew Hispanic Center (PHC) estimated that in March 2005 the number of illegal immigrants in the U.S. ranged from 11.5 to 12 million individuals.[14] This number was derived by a statistical method known as the "residual method".[13] According to the General Accounting office the residual estimation (1) starts with a census count or survey estimate of the number of foreign-born residents who have not become U.S. citizens and (2) subtracts out estimated numbers of legally present individuals in various categories, based on administrative data and assumptions (because censuses and surveys do not ask about legal status). The remainder, or residual, represents an indirect estimate of the size of the illegal immigrant population.[13] Using the residual method, several different estimates of the number of illegal immigrants present in the United States have been derived:

According to the General Accounting Office, DHS had variously estimated the size of the illegal immigrant population as of January 2000 as 7 million and 8.5 million.[13]

Some unofficial private estimates put the number even higher[15]

In January 2005, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) placed the illegal immigrant population at 10.5 million, and indicates that if recent trends continued, the figure for January 2006 would be 11 million.[16]
The Pew Hispanic Center's indirect estimate of the number of illegal immigrants as of 2006 was 11.5 million to 12 million. These estimates represented roughly one-third of the entire foreign-born population.[17]

From 2005 to 2009, the number of people entering the U.S. illegally, declined by nearly 67%, according to the Pew Hispanic Center, from 850,000 yearly average in the early 2000s to 300,000.[18]

In 2013, a DHS report estimating the size of the illegal immigrant population living in the U.S. said, "In summary, an estimated 11.4 million unauthorized immigrants were living in the United States in January 2012 compared to 11.5 million in January 2011. These results suggest little to no change in the unauthorized immigrant population from 2011 to 2012."[19]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#Number_of_illegal_immigrants

So, you have the population of Australia living illegally in the US.....and we see here, the White House is manipulating the figures downward to make it look like less of a problem.

Now, should we have a look at crime statistics involving illegals? What would be your guess, two times the national average? Three?
 
Umm. It's clear you are not up to speed on the issue, on who was apprehended, how many were not apprehended, and it would seem, not much in general on the subject. That makes it rather difficult to have any meaningful discussion.

I'm up to speed on the fact that immigration isn't a "democrat" problem. Your own sources (you gave me three cites from the 2000s, all of them pre-Obama) indicate during the Bush administration we had up to 4 million crossing per year, and before Obama took office up to 38 million in the country in total. Guess what - that's not Obama's problem. But you do nothing but blame democrats for an issue that goes back to before the Reagan administration and spans GOP and Democratic Administrations and Congresses, several of each.

And if you have stats on who was apprehended, how many were not, etc. then cite that evidence. You pointed to a wiki article then let me guess what part of it you found important. Sorry if I didn't get the point buried somewhere in that link. Perhaps you could make it directly?
 
Really? You think that implies I thought your head would explode? I think we are done here. Have a nice day. :peace

Not actually, I was being sarcastic as were you.
 
They have to lie to get work right?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Do you really think employers don't know in many cases they're hiring illegals? Seems highly unlikely to me.

And if you could post a link showing the widespread issue of employers "offering" employment to illegals and how that is done? Is it over Mexican TV? Newspaper ads "get across the Rio Grande and we will hire you?"

Easier and more effective than that would be those in the U.S. sending money home to their family, and calling them on these things called phones, telling them that jobs for them are plentiful, as they are.

As for the sudden need to document what has been fact...here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#Number_of_illegal_immigrants

So, you have the population of Australia living illegally in the US.....and we see here, the White House is manipulating the figures downward to make it look like less of a problem.

Which White House - I assume you mean it in a general sense without regard to the occupant (i.e. Bush or Obama) because I've not seen any evidence Obama has changed the method of counting them.

Now, should we have a look at crime statistics involving illegals? What would be your guess, two times the national average? Three?

I'm not going to guess your point. If you don't want to make one, don't.
 
I'm up to speed on the fact that immigration isn't a "democrat" problem. Your own sources (you gave me three cites from the 2000s, all of them pre-Obama) indicate during the Bush administration we had up to 4 million crossing per year, and before Obama took office up to 38 million in the country in total. Guess what - that's not Obama's problem. But you do nothing but blame democrats for an issue that goes back to before the Reagan administration and spans GOP and Democratic Administrations and Congresses, several of each.

And if you have stats on who was apprehended, how many were not, etc. then cite that evidence. You pointed to a wiki article then let me guess what part of it you found important. Sorry if I didn't get the point buried somewhere in that link. Perhaps you could make it directly?

It's apparent you chose to ignore the current problem, and you're fixated on ignoring the role the current administration has played in creating it. The fact that the current illegal border crossing numbers have caused it to be labeled a crisis seems to be lost on you.

I see no further point in continuing our discussion based on this fact.
 
It's apparent you chose to ignore the current problem, and you're fixated on ignoring the role the current administration has played in creating it. The fact that the current illegal border crossing numbers have caused it to be labeled a crisis seems to be lost on you.

I see no further point in continuing our discussion based on this fact.

Fine. We agree on something - the discussion isn't all that fruitful.
 
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