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Thread: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

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    Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate - LA Times

    The Thomas Jefferson Memorial, which has stood near the banks of the Potomac River in Washington for more than 70 years, is a classical tribute to the author of the Declaration of Independence and the third U.S. president..

    This week, the Jefferson Memorial was drawn into the national debate about race following the shooting deaths of nine people in a predominantly black church in South Carolina last week. It joins other public statues depicting Southern or Confederate figures, including Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee, that some are arguing represent the country's racist past and should be removed.

    CNN anchor Ashleigh Banfield this week questioned whether the Jefferson Memorial should be taken down because Jefferson owned slaves. "There is a monument to him in the capital city of the United States. No one ever asks for that to come down," Banfield said.
    See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept. They float the idea out there probably hoping it'll pick up steam. No doubt they're probably already fantasizing about bulldozers coming in. I wonder when they'll want to posthumously impeach every slave-owning President and remove them from the history books. Probably only a matter time before more crazy ideas like this get floated. Should we include every President that said the word "nigger"? How far should we go in deleting those things that offend? How about the latinos?
    Should we disassemble the United States and give them back the land we allegedly took? Right now this is all far fetched, but I don't trust this to end with just a Confederate flag.
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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate - LA Times


    See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept. They float the idea out there probably hoping it'll pick up steam. No doubt they're probably already fantasizing about bulldozers coming in. I wonder when they'll want to posthumously impeach every slave-owning President and remove them from the history books. Probably only a matter time before more crazy ideas like this get floated. Should we include every President that said the word "nigger"? How far should we go in deleting those things that offend? How about the latinos?
    Should we disassemble the United States and give them back the land we allegedly took? Right now this is all far fetched, but I don't trust this to end with just a Confederate flag.
    Ashleigh Banfield is colossally stupid.

    And anyone who thinks this new found "guilt" is okay is stupider.
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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate - LA Times


    See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept. They float the idea out there probably hoping it'll pick up steam. No doubt they're probably already fantasizing about bulldozers coming in. I wonder when they'll want to posthumously impeach every slave-owning President and remove them from the history books. Probably only a matter time before more crazy ideas like this get floated. Should we include every President that said the word "nigger"? How far should we go in deleting those things that offend? How about the latinos?
    Should we disassemble the United States and give them back the land we allegedly took? Right now this is all far fetched, but I don't trust this to end with just a Confederate flag.
    There's also alot of crap that gets mentioned and nothing ever comes of it.

    There's never going to be a following for removing statues of our founding fathers simply for owning slaves.

    There's a large difference between Jefferson and the confederacy. One was a large movement based on the idea that blacks are inferior and should be slaves and everything else was secondary. Jefferson was a great thinker with amazing ideas and ideals and that's what he's appreciated for. But he wasn't a perfect person and also held terrible ideas and did terrible things that were acceptable in his days.

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    There's also alot of crap that gets mentioned and nothing ever comes of it.

    There's never going to be a following for removing statues of our founding fathers simply for owning slaves.

    There's a large difference between Jefferson and the confederacy. One was a large movement based on the idea that blacks are inferior and should be slaves and everything else was secondary. Jefferson was a great thinker with amazing ideas and ideals and that's what he's appreciated for. But he wasn't a perfect person and also held terrible ideas and did terrible things that were acceptable in his days.
    I agree with most of what you wrote, but there was nothing "simple" about his owning slaves. It's a pretty colossal and cruel moral failure on his part. I also don't know that Jefferson's ideas were particularly "amazing". What's amazing that is other people had the courage and moral will to take the ideas he reserved for wealthy white male property owners and apply them to everyone else.
    "It ain't what they call you, it's what you answer to." - W. C. Fields

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate - LA Times


    See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept. They float the idea out there probably hoping it'll pick up steam. No doubt they're probably already fantasizing about bulldozers coming in. I wonder when they'll want to posthumously impeach every slave-owning President and remove them from the history books. Probably only a matter time before more crazy ideas like this get floated. Should we include every President that said the word "nigger"? How far should we go in deleting those things that offend? How about the latinos?
    Should we disassemble the United States and give them back the land we allegedly took? Right now this is all far fetched, but I don't trust this to end with just a Confederate flag.
    People forget that Banfield was at MSNBC when CNN hired her to increase their numbers with the left.

    The pendulum of reactionary hate is swinging again, and I'm concerned with how far it will go this time, given that the pendulum of outrage based on hate and ignorance in the name of political correctness is more like a wrecking ball.

    Everything in your life is a reflection of a choice you have made. If you want a different result, don't blame someone else, or expect others to make a change, you should stop complaining and make a different choice. Remember, the circumstances of your birth don't determine the outcome of your life.

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    I agree with most of what you wrote, but there was nothing "simple" about his owning slaves. It's a pretty colossal and cruel moral failure on his part. I also don't know that Jefferson's ideas were particularly "amazing". What's amazing that is other people had the courage and moral will to take the ideas he reserved for wealthy white male property owners and apply them to everyone else.
    You of all people who almost never agrees with me. I'm not sure what to say.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country spoke, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    I agree with most of what you wrote, but there was nothing "simple" about his owning slaves. It's a pretty colossal and cruel moral failure on his part. I also don't know that Jefferson's ideas were particularly "amazing". What's amazing that is other people had the courage and moral will to take the ideas he reserved for wealthy white male property owners and apply them to everyone else.
    I didn't call him owning slaves "simple". Simply was used to denote that I don't think any large movement will form to remove his memorials just over him owning slaves. It would have to involve other things also.

    Agree to disagree on Jefferson's ideals.

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    There's also a lot of crap that gets mentioned and nothing ever comes of it.

    There's never going to be a following for removing statues of our founding fathers simply for owning slaves.

    There's a large difference between Jefferson and the confederacy. One was a large movement based on the idea that blacks are inferior and should be slaves and everything else was secondary. Jefferson was a great thinker with amazing ideas and ideals and that's what he's appreciated for. But he wasn't a perfect person and also held terrible ideas and did terrible things that were acceptable in his days.
    I just can't get over that this statement is simply false, if that's all the confederate states wanted, they would of had it... Lincoln came close to having an amendment to the constitution that left slavery up to the states. If it was about slavery the war would have ended after a year.... the union was willing to compromise on that front.

    The confederate states wanted to separate from the union, slavery was the political issue that was used to spur the debate... it could have been any issue. People saw the opportunity and jumped. It was a political game, much like today, There are limitless examples of political movements with hidden agendas, where they have a PR side and a real side. Slavery was an excuse to separate, something that had been in discussion for a long time because of the staunch differences between the north and the south.

    Slavery was awful, but it was something that was a part of life back then and something that the majority never even owned a slave. Black people even owned slaves at a time... Slavery was never the reason for the civil war until Lincoln made it so years later when he freed the slaves, and that was more for strategy against the confederates, it was the scapegoat for the real reasons.

    I've read a lot on Robert E. Lee and he definitely seemed like a good man... a product of his time, but a good man. He would be considered racist by today's standards, but he didn't have that nature about him; a little modern education, I think, he would have not have been hands down- he was just mislead. There are other confederate officers/etc. I would say they were the opposite, very racist men, with hate...... but not Lee.



    I just don't get the mentality, I don't see why people can't just condemn certain parts that happened in history with our modern minds but also understanding the time in which they lived in... I don't automatically shame a slaveowner in the past just because he was a slave owner... that was a reality of the time, it was what was culturally accepted. At the same time I don't automatically shame a confederate soldier for being a confederate soldier. And don't throw Nazi's into this mix... they were a completely different animal, there is not one significant similarity to the Nazis and the confederates, not one... and people that try to are either-
    1. Extremely ignorant of the Nazis and the incredibly awful things they did OR have a hard time comparing these things
    2. Extremely ignorant of the Confederates
    3. Extremely dramatic
    4. Only looks at this issue as a means to bolster their political agenda
    5. All the above

    Humans are capable of anything, We make up our own morality and make it reality... they were no more or less immoral than we are today, they just had a culture that was mislead... education is a great thing, well education that teaches open mindedness and real science, is a good thing...

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    You of all people who almost never agrees with me. I'm not sure what to say.
    So which one of us is the broken clock?
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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    I agree with most of what you wrote, but there was nothing "simple" about his owning slaves. It's a pretty colossal and cruel moral failure on his part. I also don't know that Jefferson's ideas were particularly "amazing". What's amazing that is other people had the courage and moral will to take the ideas he reserved for wealthy white male property owners and apply them to everyone else.
    And it's just ignorance on your part. That WAS what was moral back then... the collective determines what is moral and excepted, there is no objective morality which is what many liberals like to say. Slavery had been around the entire length of humanities history. Jefferson had actually laid down the foundations for the cultural mind in the United States to be able to change... Liberty and justice for all.

    It took much more bravery back then to change the outlook on slavery than is required today, so you don't get to have that pride... you did nothing but be raised in a culture where slavery is unacceptable and immoral.

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