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Thread: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    I find it ironic that so many people want to, wait for it... whitewash... our nation's history. Because, ya know, only the color white is fresh and pure.

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Did I say "equal measure?" No. My point is, it should not be left out. If you visit Monticello, the tour guides should certainly not omit that he designed it, and its architectural importance -- nor should they omit that he owned slaves, and that most of the people on the plantation were slaves.



    How many people today understand chattel slavery, and how degrading it was? Not as many as one might think.

    A tour guide at a plantation, for example, wrote an article for Vox which described reactions to discussions of slavery on the tours:
    I used to lead tours at a plantation. You won



    I don't see any genuine movement to purge his memory. What I see is right-wingers who are freaked out about state governments and commercial entities turning their backs on the confederate battle flag (a long overdue measure), and The Dukes of Hazzard getting pulled (a bit trivial, but hardly a threat to American culture), and see slippery slopes everywhere.

    And yes, I do think it is important to recognize that Jefferson both advocated for human freedom, and owned slaves. Same with Washington and other prominent politicians at that time. We should also recognize that Hamilton and Adams and others were against slavery and did not own slaves.
    Have you ever been to Monticello?
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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    She might very well be stupid, but I think you might agree with her if you knew the context in which she is speaking. She was comparing the call for taking down the Confederate flag with Thomas Jefferson's statue. I don't believe she was advocating for it's removal.

    While discussing the movement to eradicate the presence of the Confederate flag, a CNN host asked whether we should also bring down a monument to a president who owned slaves.

    After last week’s slaughter of nine black churchgoers by a white gunman in Charleston, South Carolina, aroused debate over the Confederate flag and inspired at least six major retailers to ban its sale, CNN host Ashleigh Banfield asked co-host Don Lemon whether this means we should also take down a memorial to former President Thomas Jefferson because of his slave ownership in the 1700s and early 1800s.


    "Jefferson owned slaves," Banfield said, noting that a previous guest had made a "good point" in bringing that up. "Thomas Jefferson owned slaves -- third president of the United States. And there is a monument to him in the capital city of the United States. No one ever asks for that to come down. Is it equal [to the Confederate flag]?"

    CNN Host Asks If Jefferson Memorial Is Equal With Confederate Flag
    Huh? I already know the context of what she said, pete. No idea why you thought you needed to restate it? Is it because I said she was colossally stupid? She is. Has been for decades.
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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    Oh hell. This is the kind of crazy that even Hollywood backs away from.

    Let's think about this for a second. If Jefferson is such a divisive figure that we need to raze his monument then every principle this nation was founded on is equally as divisive and we should just get rid of the Constitution, dissolve the union and appoint a civil rights committee to round up and reeducate everyone who has ever done anything which is offensive to anyone else.
    That might be a little extreme. I don't think that you lump slavery in with everyday offenses.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Apples and oranges.
    Dodges and deflections.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    Because they didn't live today? Do you think Thomas Jefferson would have been a slave owner if he grew up in today? Absolutely not... The only reason you ARE NOT a slave owner, is because you did not grow up in upperclass 17th century America.
    Well really it's because I probably couldn't afford one. I guess your saying that had you grown up in early 20th century Germany that you'd have been a Nazi soldier or running a concentration camp. Do you know that there were people morally opposed to slavery as it was being practiced?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    These monuments not only demonstrate what America is supposed to stand for in contemporary times, but also a long-lasting monument to the State. In other words: Civic Religion. In this sense, you can certainly tear down statues in favor of facets you find more congenial, however, in an ever-"historically conscious" citizenry, you best be prepared to do it every 20 years and never be satisfied.

    John Adams? A Hamilton memorial, perhaps? Quintessential American...came from low ranks, rose up.....and then became an aristocrat in every sense of the term (I.e. He didn't much care for poor people).

    Unfortunately, this game leaves little opportunity for completely tolerable choices.
    But you can frequently refashion popular figures for contemporary purposes. Gone is George Washington's closer-than-you-think monarchism, and he becomes Father of the Nation. This is way more difficult with the Confederacy, however, and any good nationalist should desire to clamp down on such rebellious sentiment.

    Jefferson, though I haven't really been too sympathetic with the man, will still take his seat at the table and unless we are willing to fork over millions to regenerate our Federalist comrades, little chance for success at remaking the historical landscape.

    In a rather ironic way, this broad based enterprise would become just like Jefferson's Monticello: incredibly extravagant (almost in bad taste), but never finished due to indecisiveness.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 07-08-15 at 05:01 PM.
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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Well really it's because I probably couldn't afford one. I guess your saying that had you grown up in early 20th century Germany that you'd have been a Nazi soldier or running a concentration camp. Do you know that there were people morally opposed to slavery as it was being practiced?
    Actually Jefferson was a strange contradiction as he was much more concerned about civil liberties and a governments adherence to the constitution than the average "founder" yet he owned slaves and was deceptive with the congress over the cost and scope of the Corp of Discovery, and thought nothing about purchasing millions of acres of land from the French without even consulting the owners and occupants of the land. Yet read his writings, so many of which are in existence due to his invented "copy machine" and you find he was a man of incredible sensitivities!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    I can understand wanting to remove those statues.

    If the country is going to be mostly non-white in a few years, what point is there in having all these statues of dead white males looking down on you.

    It just makes no sense.

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    So which one of us is the broken clock?
    I was wondering how your views on Jefferson were formed? I ask because you got it completely wrong in every conceivable way...

    "With five simple words in the Declaration of Independence—“all men are created equal”—Thomas Jefferson undid Aristotle’s ancient formula, which had governed human affairs until 1776: “From the hour of their birth, some men are marked out for subjection, others for rule.” In his original draft of the Declaration, in soaring, damning, fiery prose, Jefferson denounced the slave trade as an “execrable commerce ...this assemblage of horrors,” a “cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life & liberties.” As historian John Chester Miller put it, “The inclusion of Jefferson’s strictures on slavery and the slave trade would have committed the United States to the abolition of slavery." - The Dark Side of Thomas Jefferson | History | Smithsonian

    He initially wanted his words to mean exactly what they said. His intention was NOT that it just be wealthy white people. Later on in life he did become less and less vocal because slavery was a reality of his time. This made him nothing more than a figure of his time and people in our time should not hold him to those standards.
    Quote Originally Posted by 11Bravo View Post
    i love my nation very much. gotta protect her from terrorists and atheists
    Quote Originally Posted by 11Bravo View Post
    imo imprisonment for the flag burning offense is necessary. also, mandatory sentences for those that watch and do nothing to stop it.

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