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Thread: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

  1. #31
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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    But you believe he was a racist don't you?
    An interesting question! We must ponder it.

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post

    That said, Jefferson is a very complex figure in American history, and we should teach and remember and discuss all the facets of his life and choices. We should not try to sweep under the rug the facts that he owned slaves, that he had 6 illegitimate children with Sally Hemings, and that his relationship to her was probably not consensual, and so forth.
    Of course. No one disagrees with you here, in this thread. However, do you really think that children should be taught in equal measure about Jefferson's personal life and his ideas? Jefferson is the most influential political theorist in this country's history. You cannot understand American politics or history, without knowing the ideas of Jefferson and their impact.

    How many teenagers these days know what Jeffersonian democracy is?

    A colossal figure in every respect, the man should not be reduced to snide attacks and "He owned slaves, he was evil, let's purge his memory..." rhetoric, which is gaining ground. Children should not only be taught about the his character flaws, but also the fact that he was a polymath, president of the APS, fluent in several languages and founder of the University of Virginia, and so on.
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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavendish View Post
    You claimed, and I'll quote it again, "Ultimately, the excuse that people were just a product of their time is nonsense". That's a spectacular assertion.
    Why do you think it's "spectacular"? The fact is that that many people in Jefferson's time opposed slavery on moral grounds and knew that black people were not inferior. Therefore, one cannot logically say that people who believed slavery was right were just a "product of their time" since their time included the belief that slavery was wrong.
    "It ain't what they call you, it's what you answer to." - W. C. Fields

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate - LA Times


    See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept. They float the idea out there probably hoping it'll pick up steam. No doubt they're probably already fantasizing about bulldozers coming in. I wonder when they'll want to posthumously impeach every slave-owning President and remove them from the history books. Probably only a matter time before more crazy ideas like this get floated. Should we include every President that said the word "nigger"? How far should we go in deleting those things that offend? How about the latinos?
    Should we disassemble the United States and give them back the land we allegedly took? Right now this is all far fetched, but I don't trust this to end with just a Confederate flag.
    We wouldn't elect a slave owner to the presidency today! Why would we honor one from yesterday?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    It was not a cruel system to him and amongst many of his peers, and it was not cruel to his father and his fathers before him... He was a revolutionary in much of his thinking... just not slavery...
    You don't think Jefferson knew that it was cruel to allow his overseers to beat slaves? Really?
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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Bring it all down and give our founders numbers instead names. Sanitize our history and wipe out the past. Can't risk even one special little snowflake to be psychologically damaged because of the blemishes of our past.

    ****ing idiots.
    "I believe in a Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."

    --Albert Einstein, 1929

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    We wouldn't elect a slave owner to the presidency today! Why would we honor one from yesterday?
    Apples and oranges.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    You don't think Jefferson knew that it was cruel to allow his overseers to beat slaves? Really?
    I honestly don't know... but I've heard justifications of slavery back then.... much like how we treat children. Children are essentially slaves to their parents. Beating used to be a common thing for discipline, not just of slaves, but for children and criminals as well. I would think he would think it was cruel to unjustly beat a slave just because you felt like it.

    You have to literally have to think like you're in the 1700s

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    We wouldn't elect a slave owner to the presidency today! Why would we honor one from yesterday?
    Because they didn't live today? Do you think Thomas Jefferson would have been a slave owner if he grew up in today? Absolutely not... The only reason you ARE NOT a slave owner, is because you did not grow up in upperclass 17th century America.

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavendish View Post
    Do you really think that children should be taught in equal measure about Jefferson's personal life and his ideas?
    Did I say "equal measure?" No. My point is, it should not be left out. If you visit Monticello, the tour guides should certainly not omit that he designed it, and its architectural importance -- nor should they omit that he owned slaves, and that most of the people on the plantation were slaves.


    How many teenagers these days know what Jeffersonian democracy is?
    How many people today understand chattel slavery, and how degrading it was? Not as many as one might think.

    A tour guide at a plantation, for example, wrote an article for Vox which described reactions to discussions of slavery on the tours:
    I used to lead tours at a plantation. You won


    A colossal figure in every respect, the man should not be reduced to snide attacks and "He owned slaves, he was evil, let's purge his memory..." rhetoric, which is gaining ground.
    I don't see any genuine movement to purge his memory. What I see is right-wingers who are freaked out about state governments and commercial entities turning their backs on the confederate battle flag (a long overdue measure), and The Dukes of Hazzard getting pulled (a bit trivial, but hardly a threat to American culture), and see slippery slopes everywhere.

    And yes, I do think it is important to recognize that Jefferson both advocated for human freedom, and owned slaves. Same with Washington and other prominent politicians at that time. We should also recognize that Hamilton and Adams and others were against slavery and did not own slaves.

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