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Thread: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    I just can't get over that this statement is simply false, if that's all the confederate states wanted, they would of had it... Lincoln came close to having an amendment to the constitution that left slavery up to the states. If it was about slavery the war would have ended after a year.... the union was willing to compromise on that front.
    By a year in to the war, the confederate leaders didn't trust the north to truly let them keep their slaves. And there is very scant evidence to suggest that the north really was willing to compromise on the issue.

    Also, I'm not judging the people for being racist. I don't think you can judge them based on our modern morality when they lived in a time that didn't agree with our morality. But I see little reason to celebrate them other than the fact that they fought to continue slavery and to tear our nation apart.

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Presentism doesn't have anything to do with what I said since I based the line you quoted on views about slavery during Jefferson's life.
    You claimed, and I'll quote it again, "Ultimately, the excuse that people were just a product of their time is nonsense". That's a spectacular assertion.
    It was not part of their blood,
    It came to them very late,
    With long arrears to make good,
    When the Saxon began to hate.

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate - LA Times


    See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept. They float the idea out there probably hoping it'll pick up steam. No doubt they're probably already fantasizing about bulldozers coming in. I wonder when they'll want to posthumously impeach every slave-owning President and remove them from the history books. Probably only a matter time before more crazy ideas like this get floated. Should we include every President that said the word "nigger"? How far should we go in deleting those things that offend? How about the latinos?
    Should we disassemble the United States and give them back the land we allegedly took? Right now this is all far fetched, but I don't trust this to end with just a Confederate flag.
    Please visit post # 16


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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Maybe if you were talking about some regular uneducated farm hand, your point would make sense, but you're talking about Thomas Jefferson. He knew better. He chose to participate in a cruel system. And since he's been dead for a couple centuries, I think we can admit that.
    It was not a cruel system to him and amongst many of his peers, and it was not cruel to his father and his fathers before him... He was a revolutionary in much of his thinking... just not slavery...

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Oh, come-on now!

    Maybe we should get rid of that George Washington guy too - I heard he also was a slave oner, and had quite a few.

    And those 'Founding Fathers'? Forget about it!

    "Out the door with all of them"!
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    Oh hell. This is the kind of crazy that even Hollywood backs away from.

    Let's think about this for a second. If Jefferson is such a divisive figure that we need to raze his monument then every principle this nation was founded on is equally as divisive and we should just get rid of the Constitution, dissolve the union and appoint a civil rights committee to round up and reeducate everyone who has ever done anything which is offensive to anyone else.
    Are you saying that no one is thinking about that option?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Oh, come-on now!

    Maybe we should get rid of that George Washington guy too - I heard he also was a slave oner, and had quite a few.

    And those 'Founding Fathers'? Forget about it!

    "Out the door with all of them"!
    I said slave-owning presidents, didn't I?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country spoke, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    I agree with most of what you wrote, but there was nothing "simple" about his owning slaves. It's a pretty colossal and cruel moral failure on his part.
    Based on what. YOUR morals? I see you are flying the Gay Flag. I see that as a pretty colossal and cruel moral failure on your part.

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept. They float the idea out there probably hoping it'll pick up steam.
    Who are "they?"

    One (count it, one) CNN commentator briefly questioned if anyone will reconsider the Jefferson Memorial. A second basically said "maybe" and then they moved on.

    Did Ashleigh Banfield get a secret email from the Famous Corporation, telling her to slip a brief mention into a broadcast? Ridiculous. (Note: 10 points to anyone who gets the reference. )


    I wonder when they'll want to posthumously impeach every slave-owning President and remove them from the history books.
    Probably sometime around "never." Though we have already seen Texas try to purge the historical fact that the US Civil War was first and foremost about slavery, so...

    That said, Jefferson is a very complex figure in American history, and we should teach and remember and discuss all the facets of his life and choices. We should not try to sweep under the rug the facts that he owned slaves, that he had 6 illegitimate children with Sally Hemings, and that his relationship to her was probably not consensual, and so forth.


    Right now this is all far fetched, but I don't trust this to end with just a Confederate flag.
    Uh huh. So instead of recognizing that slippery slope arguments are rarely valid, you just run with one anyway, based on the flimsiest of premises. Nice.

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I said slave-owning presidents, didn't I?
    Oops.

    My (attempted) rebuttal (this is a debate forum, after-all):

    +++

    "Some of the founding fathers became Presidents"

    "I was attempting to shed illumination on the discussion, by expanding it"

    "I was adding 'original thought'"

    +++

    Heh - O.K., fair enough - I missed that line (Presidents) when I read your OP.
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

    The 10 Commandments of Logic - (Courtesy of Abbazorkzog Blog)

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