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Thread: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    I didn't call him owning slaves "simple". Simply was used to denote that I don't think any large movement will form to remove his memorials just over him owning slaves. It would have to involve other things also.
    I see. Thanks for clarifying. In that case, I agree. There isn't a large group of Americans who would advocate removing the statue for that aspect of his history alone. I think that there would have to be a significant shift in the way that our culture looks at the founding of our country in order for such a movement to gain steam.
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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    And it's just ignorance on your part. That WAS what was moral back then... the collective determines what is moral and excepted, there is no objective morality which is what many liberals like to say. Slavery had been around the entire length of humanities history. Jefferson had actually laid down the foundations for the cultural mind in the United States to be able to change... Liberty and justice for all.
    There were plenty of white abolitionists who knew that slavery was wrong. In fact, there were plenty of slave owners who knew that it was wrong. I believe some of the founding fathers themselves expressed conflicted thoughts on slavery. Even further, there were generations of black slaves who also knew that slavery was wrong. In short, there were different opinions on the morality of slavery at the time, so no, it was not universally moral back then.

    Ultimately, the excuse that people were just a product of their time is nonsense, particularly for Jefferson since he was most definitely exposed to abolitionist thought. He chose to participate in an unjust and cruel activity. There are no excuses.

    I do agree with you that morality is subjective though.
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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept.
    Oh, such scandalous contemplation! How dare these people mention or ponder beliefs and ideas! If they keep this up, they'll be acting like people such as Thomas Jefferson!

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    There were plenty of white abolitionists who knew that slavery was wrong. In fact, there were plenty of slave owners who knew that it was wrong. I believe some of the founding fathers themselves expressed conflicted thoughts on slavery. Even further, there were generations of black slaves who also knew that slavery was wrong. In short, there were different opinions on the morality of slavery at the time, so no, it was not universally moral back then.

    Ultimately, the excuse that people were just a product of their time is nonsense, particularly for Jefferson since he was most definitely exposed to abolitionist thought. He chose to participate in an unjust and cruel activity. There are no excuses.

    I do agree with you that morality is subjective though.
    My statements allow all those exceptions to happen... The fact is, slavery was much more morally ambiguous than it is today, GREATLY so.... and I don't think you have the right to act all high and mighty because you were not born in that time... you have it easy, it's easier for you to realize and make the moral choices.

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Oh, such scandalous contemplation! How dare these people mention or ponder beliefs and ideas! If they keep this up, they'll be acting like people such as Thomas Jefferson!
    But you believe he was a racist don't you?
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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Ashleigh Banfield is colossally stupid.

    And anyone who thinks this new found "guilt" is okay is stupider.
    She might very well be stupid, but I think you might agree with her if you knew the context in which she is speaking. She was comparing the call for taking down the Confederate flag with Thomas Jefferson's statue. I don't believe she was advocating for it's removal.

    While discussing the movement to eradicate the presence of the Confederate flag, a CNN host asked whether we should also bring down a monument to a president who owned slaves.

    After last week’s slaughter of nine black churchgoers by a white gunman in Charleston, South Carolina, aroused debate over the Confederate flag and inspired at least six major retailers to ban its sale, CNN host Ashleigh Banfield asked co-host Don Lemon whether this means we should also take down a memorial to former President Thomas Jefferson because of his slave ownership in the 1700s and early 1800s.


    "Jefferson owned slaves," Banfield said, noting that a previous guest had made a "good point" in bringing that up. "Thomas Jefferson owned slaves -- third president of the United States. And there is a monument to him in the capital city of the United States. No one ever asks for that to come down. Is it equal [to the Confederate flag]?"

    CNN Host Asks If Jefferson Memorial Is Equal With Confederate Flag


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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post

    Ultimately, the excuse that people were just a product of their time is nonsense, particularly for Jefferson since he was most definitely exposed to abolitionist thought. He chose to participate in an unjust and cruel activity. There are no excuses.
    When are we guilty of presentism in this discussion, in your opinion?
    It was not part of their blood,
    It came to them very late,
    With long arrears to make good,
    When the Saxon began to hate.

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavendish View Post
    When are we guilty of presentism in this discussion, in your opinion?
    Presentism doesn't have anything to do with what I said since I based the line you quoted on views about slavery during Jefferson's life.
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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    My statements allow all those exceptions to happen... The fact is, slavery was much more morally ambiguous than it is today, GREATLY so.... and I don't think you have the right to act all high and mighty because you were not born in that time... you have it easy, it's easier for you to realize and make the moral choices.
    Maybe if you were talking about some regular uneducated farm hand, your point would make sense, but you're talking about Thomas Jefferson. He knew better. He chose to participate in a cruel system. And since he's been dead for a couple centuries, I think we can admit that.
    "It ain't what they call you, it's what you answer to." - W. C. Fields

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Oh hell. This is the kind of crazy that even Hollywood backs away from.

    Let's think about this for a second. If Jefferson is such a divisive figure that we need to raze his monument then every principle this nation was founded on is equally as divisive and we should just get rid of the Constitution, dissolve the union and appoint a civil rights committee to round up and reeducate everyone who has ever done anything which is offensive to anyone else.

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