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Thread: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

  1. #101
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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    No it wasn't. There was little ambiguity about it at the time the Constitution was drafted. The framers didn't address it in the Constitution for political reasons not for any moral ambiguity. The southern states would never have signed on if slavery were abolished.
    And the formation of a union was paramount to civil liberties, so I suppose you're right.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    And the formation of a union was paramount to civil liberties, so I suppose you're right.
    The formation of the the union was the guarantor of civil liberties. If you read the Federalist Papers it's clear that the founders, assuming Hamilton and Jay expressed commonly held sentiments, feared that several small confederacies would not have survived.
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Trump, patientia nostra?

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    The formation of the the union was the guarantor of civil liberties. If you read the Federalist Papers it's clear that the founders, assuming Hamilton and Jay expressed commonly held sentiments, feared that several small confederacies would not have survived.
    For white people. And their fears wouldn't necessarily have become realities.. The preservation of the union was Lincoln's earliest cause celeb for the war of aggression. Slavery was a convenient expedience that followed.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Not intending to overlook the morality, but I think at that time much of it was a business decision. Slavery was considered okay by a great part of society even though the moral outrage of it had begun. I don't think the abolitionists were pure of heart either, some probably didn't like the benefit of free labor that the slaveowners enjoyed; basically an unfair business practice.
    Some abolitionists may have viewed it as an economic. However, the predominant arguments against slavery were based in morality. In fact, the Quakers were one of the stronger supporters of abolition and their opposition was based in religious moral grounds. The fact is that the abolitionist movement was an overwhelmingly morals-based movement even if some abolitionists may have had more economic interests in mind.
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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    For white people. And their fears wouldn't necessarily have become realities.. The preservation of the union was Lincoln's earliest cause celeb for the war of aggression. Slavery was a convenient expedience that followed.
    Perhaps. We have the benefit of hindsight. Having seen how the colonies acted towards each other, and having seen recent European history they were completely justified in their concern.

    And while you're right that they were concerned mostly about white people - white males for the most part - I can't imagine how an additional war or wars would have made slaves lives better.
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Trump, patientia nostra?

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    By observing his actions instead of just taking him at his word.
    So you assumed incorrectly judging on slavery a cultural norm at the time and nothing else? Great system.

    I added this back in since you dishonestly dumped it from my reply.

    I ask because you got it completely wrong in every conceivable way...

    "With five simple words in the Declaration of Independence—“all men are created equal”—Thomas Jefferson undid Aristotle’s ancient formula, which had governed human affairs until 1776: “From the hour of their birth, some men are marked out for subjection, others for rule.” In his original draft of the Declaration, in soaring, damning, fiery prose, Jefferson denounced the slave trade as an “execrable commerce ...this assemblage of horrors,” a “cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life & liberties.” As historian John Chester Miller put it, “The inclusion of Jefferson’s strictures on slavery and the slave trade would have committed the United States to the abolition of slavery." - The Dark Side of Thomas Jefferson | History | Smithsonian

    He initially wanted his words to mean exactly what they said. His intention was NOT that it just be wealthy white people. Later on in life he did become less and less vocal because slavery was a reality of his time. This made him nothing more than a figure of his time and people in our time should not hold him to those standards.
    Quote Originally Posted by 11Bravo View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11Bravo View Post
    imo imprisonment for the flag burning offense is necessary. also, mandatory sentences for those that watch and do nothing to stop it.

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Most of whom used slavery to buy and protect their loved ones. Of those who did not, I suspect they knew that slavery was cruel just like white slave owners.
    I suspect you have no idea what you are talking about.

    In the rare instances when the ownership of slaves by free Negroes is acknowledged in the history books, justification centers on the claim that black slave masters were simply individuals who purchased the freedom of a spouse or child from a white slaveholder and had been unable to legally manumit them. Although this did indeed happen at times, it is a misrepresentation of the majority of instances, one which is debunked by records of the period on blacks who owned slaves. These include individuals such as Justus Angel and Mistress L. Horry, of Colleton District, South Carolina, who each owned 84 slaves in 1830. In fact, in 1830 a fourth of the free Negro slave masters in South Carolina owned 10 or more slaves; eight owning 30 or more (2).

    According to federal census reports, on June 1, 1860 there were nearly 4.5 million Negroes in the United States, with fewer than four million of them living in the southern slaveholding states. Of the blacks residing in the South, 261,988 were not slaves. Of this number, 10,689 lived in New Orleans. The country's leading African American historian, Duke University professor John Hope Franklin, records that in New Orleans over 3,000 free Negroes owned slaves, or 28 percent of the free Negroes in that city.

    To return to the census figures quoted above, this 28 percent is certainly impressive when compared to less than 1.4 percent of all American whites and less than 4.8 percent of southern whites. The statistics show that, when free, blacks disproportionately became slave masters.
    - Black Slave Owners Civil War Article by Robert M Grooms

    Read more history and do less "judging by actions" because it appears you are not a very good judge.
    Quote Originally Posted by 11Bravo View Post
    i love my nation very much. gotta protect her from terrorists and atheists
    Quote Originally Posted by 11Bravo View Post
    imo imprisonment for the flag burning offense is necessary. also, mandatory sentences for those that watch and do nothing to stop it.

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Sure and in the 1700s, there were plenty of white people who thought that slavery was cruel. Jefferson himself called it cruel. There were certainly plenty of black people who thought it was cruel.
    Then I am glad you understand

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate - LA Times


    See how it usually starts, with a mere mention...a pondering of the concept. They float the idea out there probably hoping it'll pick up steam. No doubt they're probably already fantasizing about bulldozers coming in. I wonder when they'll want to posthumously impeach every slave-owning President and remove them from the history books. Probably only a matter time before more crazy ideas like this get floated. Should we include every President that said the word "nigger"? How far should we go in deleting those things that offend? How about the latinos?
    Should we disassemble the United States and give them back the land we allegedly took? Right now this is all far fetched, but I don't trust this to end with just a Confederate flag.
    You are exactly right American...It won't stop until we tear this country apart and disband as a country. This whole thing is furthered by people in this country that are either ashamed of being American, or they are the guilt consumed for being lucky enough to having been born American....
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Dog View Post
    So you assumed incorrectly judging on slavery a cultural norm at the time and nothing else? Great system.

    I added this back in since you dishonestly dumped it from my reply.
    I'm not sure what you're point is since you're just repeating yourself. I guess we'll just agree to disagree about Jefferson. If you think I'm wrong, I'll live with it. You can have the last word.
    Last edited by ThePlayDrive; 07-09-15 at 09:35 AM.
    "It ain't what they call you, it's what you answer to." - W. C. Fields

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