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Thread: Gun used by illigal immigrant in killing belonged to federal agent

  1. #211
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    Re: Gun used by illigal immigrant in killing belonged to federal agent

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    Exactly, so it is more likely that the government could take away your car, then take away your gun. So you're really only strengthening my argument that people who think registration will lead to banishment are nothing more then alarmists. And no, What registration will allow authorities to do, is hold people accountable for the weapons in their control. It gives them a tool to set up a process the demands people legally sell their firearms to someone who can legally own one. Firearms just don't appear out of thin air, the vast majority are purchased legally and gun stores and then get sold to 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and so on owners where there is no process to ensure the legality of those sales. We just trust that people are selling their firearms to fellow legal owners. I don't know any other industry that has this type of freedom. There are some places where you have to jump thru hoops just to get extra strength advil, yet anyone can easily purchase a gun on any street corner in this country without ever having to prove they can legally own one. You could sell a child a gun, and they only way they will ever be caught, is if that child shoots himself, or someone else with it. And that is only if the person who was shot, or some witnesses can identify the boy. Because there is no accountability for that weapon. The person who sold it has no responsibility to be accountable for it because the gun is not registered to them, and it cant be traced to the boy because its not registered to him. So you end up with crimes where people get shot, and even if you have the firearm, if there are no witnesses who want to come foreward, you will never be able to investigate the crime at all.
    your silly rant might have some merit if England had not used registration to round up handguns or Australia had not used registration to round up pump and semi automatic long guns or if NYS has not used registration to try to confiscate the weapons of deceased owners or CT has not used registration to try to force compliance with their idiotic "assault weapons" laws or if NYC and NJ and California had not used registration for the same purposes.

    how many other industries require that the maker keep records of what products they sell to wholesalers who then have to keep detailed records of who they sell to as retailers and then the retailers have to do background checks on the buyers, who cannot buy many of these products across state lines.

    and your moronic argument about LEGAL advil sales compared to street gun sales is so pathetic given the proper comparison is ILLEGAL drug sales on the street

    I see lots of ranting and no solutions.
    Quote Originally Posted by EarlzP View Post
    Why would you not want to register your weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    , as long as you can own one or fewer guns, your right to bear a firearm is not being infringed upon.

  2. #212
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    Re: Gun used by illigal immigrant in killing belonged to federal agent

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    there is no evidence that registration has done any good. Hawaii has gun registration and there is no evidence it has been used to lower crime. registration cannot even be enforced against criminals due to the fifth amendment.

    registration doesn't tell you who fired the gun-that is one of the most moronic things I have heard. this is why I lampoon the arguments of gun banners and gun restrictionists. they make idiotic arguments that are so stupid that their entire premise fails.
    I've always maintained that it doesn't matter if it "works" or not, it's a violation of human rights. It's like the arguments over whether torture works or not; many people maintained during Shrub's term that torture didn't work and that's why it shouldn't be used. No, it shouldn't be used because it is wrong, regardless of its effectiveness. The same holds true for gun control.

    It just so happens that GC also doesn't work if one's goal is reduce firearm homicide rate. This can easily be seen by comparing the firearm homicide rate between various states: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_...tates_by_state

    For example, DC has some of the most restrictive laws in the country, yet has a firearm homicide rate of 16.5 per 100k. Compare that to Texas, among but certainly not the least restrictive, which has a rate of 3.2. So, the end result of violating with such gusto the right to bear arms is a firearm homicide rate 5x as high which historically has prompted calls for even tighter GC. Lather, rinse, repeat.

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    Re: Gun used by illigal immigrant in killing belonged to federal agent

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen.Seven View Post
    I've always maintained that it doesn't matter if it "works" or not, it's a violation of human rights. It's like the arguments over whether torture works or not; many people maintained during Shrub's term that torture didn't work and that's why it shouldn't be used. No, it shouldn't be used because it is wrong, regardless of its effectiveness. The same holds true for gun control.

    It just so happens that GC also doesn't work if one's goal is reduce firearm homicide rate. This can easily be seen by comparing the firearm homicide rate between various states: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_...tates_by_state

    For example, DC has some of the most restrictive laws in the country, yet has a firearm homicide rate of 16.5 per 100k. Compare that to Texas, among but certainly not the least restrictive, which has a rate of 3.2. So, the end result of violating with such gusto the right to bear arms is a firearm homicide rate 5x as high which historically has prompted calls for even tighter GC. Lather, rinse, repeat.
    such arguments-while meritorious, have little impact on gun restrictionists because crime control is not what really motivates them anyway. Gun control is actually very effective in achieving the goals that truly motivate the gun restrictionists-that being the harassment, if not the disarmament of honest people. Chicago and DC gun bans kept most honest people from owning handguns, California gun bans mean that if you want to own a currently made AR 15, you have to buy one with the idiotic "bullet button" and in NY you have to get one with one of those mutated stocks

    so gun control works exactly as its proponents intend
    Quote Originally Posted by EarlzP View Post
    Why would you not want to register your weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    , as long as you can own one or fewer guns, your right to bear a firearm is not being infringed upon.

  4. #214
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    Re: Gun used by illigal immigrant in killing belonged to federal agent

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen.Seven View Post
    I've always maintained that it doesn't matter if it "works" or not, it's a violation of human rights. It's like the arguments over whether torture works or not; many people maintained during Shrub's term that torture didn't work and that's why it shouldn't be used. No, it shouldn't be used because it is wrong, regardless of its effectiveness. The same holds true for gun control.

    It just so happens that GC also doesn't work if one's goal is reduce firearm homicide rate. This can easily be seen by comparing the firearm homicide rate between various states: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_...tates_by_state

    For example, DC has some of the most restrictive laws in the country, yet has a firearm homicide rate of 16.5 per 100k. Compare that to Texas, among but certainly not the least restrictive, which has a rate of 3.2. So, the end result of violating with such gusto the right to bear arms is a firearm homicide rate 5x as high which historically has prompted calls for even tighter GC. Lather, rinse, repeat.
    FBI stats are unreliable....

    FBI figures tweaked to show phony increase in mass shootings, report says | Fox News

    "The FBI’s justifiable homicides and the estimates from (arrest-related deaths) both have significant limitations in terms of coverage and reliability that are primarily due to agency participation and measurement issues,” said Michael Planty, one of the Justice Department’s chief statisticians, in an email..."
    How many police shootings a year? No one knows - The Washington Post




    New data from the CDC shows that five states with lax gun control laws ranked the highest in gun homicide deaths...and higher than DC.

    VPC - The Violence Policy Center - State Firearm Death Rates, Ranked by Rate, 2011


    States with the Five Highest Gun Death Rates
    (Rank State Household Gun Ownership Gun Death Rate Per 100,000)

    1 Louisiana 45.6 percent 18.91
    2 Mississippi 54.3 percent 17.80
    3 Alaska 60.6 percent 17.41
    4 Wyoming 62.8 percent 16.92
    5 Montana 61.4 percent 16.74

    States with the Five Lowest Gun Death Rates
    (Rank State Household Gun Ownership Gun Death Rate Per 100,000)

    50 Rhode Island 13.3 percent 3.14
    49 Hawaii 9.7 percent 3.56
    48 Massachusetts 12.8 percent 3.84
    47 New York 18.1 percent 5.11
    46 New Jersey 11.3 percent 5.46
    For a list of gun death rates in all 50 states, (see link above)


    State gun death rates are calculated by dividing the number of gun deaths by the total state population and multiplying the result by 100,000 to obtain the rate per 100,000, which is the standard and accepted method for comparing fatal levels of gun violence....

    New Study Ranks 50 States By Gun Sense And Gun Deaths -- Gun Extremists Arrive in 5-4-3-2-1

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    Re: Gun used by illigal immigrant in killing belonged to federal agent

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    your silly rant might have some merit if England had not used registration to round up handguns or Australia had not used registration to round up pump and semi automatic long guns or if NYS has not used registration to try to confiscate the weapons of deceased owners or CT has not used registration to try to force compliance with their idiotic "assault weapons" laws or if NYC and NJ and California had not used registration for the same purposes.
    Does Australia have a similar 5th amendment?, not they don't. That is why they were able to round up any guns they wished. But in America, there is a 5th Amendment. So your assertation that a registration process would result in a ban, is just ignorant.

    how many other industries require that the maker keep records of what products they sell to wholesalers who then have to keep detailed records of who they sell to as retailers and then the retailers have to do background checks on the buyers, who cannot buy many of these products across state lines.
    Most products designated as dual use products are in fact highly regulated by the government. Which is why when some extremists buys 10 tons of manure, diesel fuel and hay, the federal government is alterted to the fact. And they should be!

    and your moronic argument about LEGAL advil sales compared to street gun sales is so pathetic given the proper comparison is ILLEGAL drug sales on the street

    I see lots of ranting and no solutions.
    I have a logical solution, while I will submit, is will not completely resolve the problem, it will measurably reduce the problem. Which people like you have failed to provide.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

  6. #216
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    Re: Gun used by illigal immigrant in killing belonged to federal agent

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    Does Australia have a similar 5th amendment?, not they don't. That is why they were able to round up any guns they wished. But in America, there is a 5th Amendment. So your assertation that a registration process would result in a ban, is just ignorant.



    Most products designated as dual use products are in fact highly regulated by the government. Which is why when some extremists buys 10 tons of manure, diesel fuel and hay, the federal government is alterted to the fact. And they should be!



    I have a logical solution, while I will submit, is will not completely resolve the problem, it will measurably reduce the problem. Which people like you have failed to provide.
    I think you mean SECOND Amendment, not Fifth
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

  7. #217
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    Re: Gun used by illigal immigrant in killing belonged to federal agent

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    Does Australia have a similar 5th amendment?, not they don't. That is why they were able to round up any guns they wished. But in America, there is a 5th Amendment. So your assertation that a registration process would result in a ban, is just ignorant.



    Most products designated as dual use products are in fact highly regulated by the government. Which is why when some extremists buys 10 tons of manure, diesel fuel and hay, the federal government is alterted to the fact. And they should be!



    I have a logical solution, while I will submit, is will not completely resolve the problem, it will measurably reduce the problem. Which people like you have failed to provide.
    since you want to play constitutional law games with me-did the fifth amendment stop NYC? NO.

    your claim about reductions is not supported by evidence. It also doesn't overcome the fact that you have advocated complete gun bans in the past. . ten tons would be equivalent to someone buying hundreds of guns at once. IF YOU BUY MORE THAN ONE HANDGUN from a DEALER IN FIVE BUSINESS days, the dealer is required to notify the ATF
    Quote Originally Posted by EarlzP View Post
    Why would you not want to register your weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrity View Post
    , as long as you can own one or fewer guns, your right to bear a firearm is not being infringed upon.

  8. #218
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    Re: Gun used by illigal immigrant in killing belonged to federal agent

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    FBI stats are unreliable....

    FBI figures tweaked to show phony increase in mass shootings, report says | Fox News

    "The FBI’s justifiable homicides and the estimates from (arrest-related deaths) both have significant limitations in terms of coverage and reliability that are primarily due to agency participation and measurement issues,” said Michael Planty, one of the Justice Department’s chief statisticians, in an email..."
    How many police shootings a year? No one knows - The Washington Post




    New data from the CDC shows that five states with lax gun control laws ranked the highest in gun homicide deaths...and higher than DC.

    VPC - The Violence Policy Center - State Firearm Death Rates, Ranked by Rate, 2011


    States with the Five Highest Gun Death Rates
    (Rank State Household Gun Ownership Gun Death Rate Per 100,000)

    1 Louisiana 45.6 percent 18.91
    2 Mississippi 54.3 percent 17.80
    3 Alaska 60.6 percent 17.41
    4 Wyoming 62.8 percent 16.92
    5 Montana 61.4 percent 16.74

    States with the Five Lowest Gun Death Rates
    (Rank State Household Gun Ownership Gun Death Rate Per 100,000)

    50 Rhode Island 13.3 percent 3.14
    49 Hawaii 9.7 percent 3.56
    48 Massachusetts 12.8 percent 3.84
    47 New York 18.1 percent 5.11
    46 New Jersey 11.3 percent 5.46
    For a list of gun death rates in all 50 states, (see link above)


    State gun death rates are calculated by dividing the number of gun deaths by the total state population and multiplying the result by 100,000 to obtain the rate per 100,000, which is the standard and accepted method for comparing fatal levels of gun violence....

    New Study Ranks 50 States By Gun Sense And Gun Deaths -- Gun Extremists Arrive in 5-4-3-2-1
    Notice the switch. From a crime perspective, the only thing that matters is gun homicide rate. The stats above changes this to gun death rates, which would include suicides, accidents, and legal use of firearms resulting in death (LEO enforcement, self protection, etc). While sad in some cases (excluding most LEO and all self-defense), completely irrelevant to the relevant quantity: firearm homicide rate.

  9. #219
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    Re: Gun used by illigal immigrant in killing belonged to federal agent

    Quote Originally Posted by WSUwarrior View Post
    Democratic immigration policy is as responsible for this cold blooded murder as the murderer himself.
    This is true, but the GUN is NOT responsible!

    A Gun is steel, wood, lead, plastic, oil and chemical propellants. It has no consciousness or free will.

    Would everyone be reacting to the tool used for dealing death, being a stolen item, if it the tool was a car, baseball bat, or crowbar?

    People act like "Guns" are some sort of magical thing capable of dealing death, were nothing else in the world can.... It is Stupid!

    If this murderer had used a stolen, empty beer bottle to commit his crimes, would we be discussing the source of the beer bottle?

    Gun or Beer Bottle, it doesn't leap up and commit murder!

    Do YOU know where all your empty beer bottles are?!!!!

    -
    Last edited by Kurmugeon; 07-11-15 at 10:10 AM.

  10. #220
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    Re: Gun used by illigal immigrant in killing belonged to federal agent

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen.Seven View Post
    Notice the switch. From a crime perspective, the only thing that matters is gun homicide rate. The stats above changes this to gun death rates, which would include suicides, accidents, and legal use of firearms resulting in death (LEO enforcement, self protection, etc). While sad in some cases (excluding most LEO and all self-defense), completely irrelevant to the relevant quantity: firearm homicide rate.
    Someone shot dead by a gun are still dead, no matter the reason. But you're right, the FBI and CDC stats don't include LEO gun homicides...because police departments don't like to report those if they don't have to. And if homicides are too high, they'll fudge those numbers to make their departments look better for election time, too. CompStat.

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