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Thread: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    A) The North, up to and including Lincoln himself, believed that African slaves were generally inferior to whites as well. His ultimate hope was to ship them all off to Africa as such. The North can claim no moral high ground with regards to racism.

    B) Of course slavery was mentioned by the South as being one of their reasons for going to war. It was literally the crux of their entire economic system.

    That does not, however, mean that it was ever the South's primary reason for going to war, nor that it is the only thing the flag stands for.
    Well, at least we finally got someone to tell the truth of it.
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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Thank you for the insightful and most eloquent retort.

    I like how this professor does like everyone else who rationalizes the South's attempt to retain slavery. It wasn't they wanted to hold onto people who they claimed as property and keep them inferior and subservient, but it was all about economics - taxes, tarriffs, profits. Property rights is never part of the rational because it would force such people to face the inhumanity of slavery. It's never about forced labor because it would force such people to again face the inhumanity of slavery. And it's never about how White slave masters or even Whites in the north kept Blacks under their thumb as it were, i.e., anti-slave laws, Jim Crow, etc., ensuring that Blacks even when freed could easily and unjustly be forced right back into bondage.

    Taxes, tariffs, profits, property rights, lifestyle disruption in the south (and in the North to a lessor degree)...all used to justify an inhuman practice some of our Founding Fathers tried to abolish when this country was first broke from its mother stem. Twenty-five years after the Declaration of Independence was signed, the issue of slavery was suppose to be placed back before Congress to debate. That never happened and as a result, Southern states used every excuse in the book to hold onto this despicable way of life. They held on so tight that well over a century later, we're still "fighting" about it today.

    Shameful...
    As opposed to what, voluntary economic ruin and decades worth of depression?

    What on Earth did you expect?

    Threatening someone's livelihood and way of life has always been one of the quickest ways to come to blows with them.

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Exactly. I understand why she's doing, but I still think it's a cowardly "sell out" move all the same.

    The simple fact of the matter is that what we have now is a fair compromise. The battle flag isn't flying over the Capital. It's flying over a war memorial. There's actually a Black History monument on the opposite side of the grounds as well.

    The way things are now represents a perfectly equitable reflection of our state's actual history, culture, and demographics. The changes being proposed frankly seem to be a Hell of a lot more about deliberately spitting in the face of Southern culture, and enforcing "P.C." cultural supremacy than anything else.
    Damn those leftists like NASCAR and Nikki Haley for enforcing leftist PC cultural supermacy!!!
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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    A) The North, up to and including Lincoln himself, believed that African slaves were generally inferior to whites as well. His ultimate hope was to ship them all off to Africa as such. The North can claim no moral high ground with regards to racism.

    B) Of course slavery was mentioned by the South as being one of their reasons for going to war. It was literally the crux of their entire economic system.

    That does not, however, mean that it was ever the South's primary reason for going to war, nor that it is the only thing the flag stands for.
    But Lincoln ultimately thought slavery was horrible for slaves and masters alike, unlike the South, and that imo is the moral high ground. And you say he believed AA's were inferior to whites, how could he understand the potential of African Americans when they rarely had the chance to prove it?

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Are we seriously still pretending the Civil War wasn't about slavery, despite the fact that several states' official declarations of secession and war were SPECIFICALLY addressing their belief in the inferiority of the black race as their main reason for it? What, did the Yankees sneak into their state buildings and write those declarations for them?

    Whatever. You're just choosing intentional ignorance.
    ----------------
    All wars are never about just one thing & "The War of Northern Aggression" / "Civil War" was no exception.

    1. There has never been a situation in which Industrial States/societies have lived near Agrarian societies without the Industrial States invading, seizing or Colonizing Agrarian States for their natural resources


    2. If the North fought under the moral banner of "Freeing the Slaves", why was the Emancipation Proclamation made after 2 years of Fighting?

    3. Lincoln despised Black people; his first choice was to deport liberated slaves. His blatant bigotry was shared by his fellow Northerners

    4. Northerners were descended from England's Puritans while most Southerners were descended from the Cavaliers/ Royalists. They carried much of that enmity with them from England's Civil Wars.


    There are other complex reasons but as long as the victors write the history, School Textbooks will continue to perpetrate the falsehood that the C.W. was Just about slavery.


    Thanks

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    As opposed to what, voluntary economic ruin and decades worth of depression?

    What on Earth did you expect?

    Threatening someone's livelihood and way of life has always been one of the quickest ways to come to blows with them.
    Considering that I wasn't alive back then I expect nothing. But as for today, I expect people to be honest about why southern states seceded and not sugar coat it. It was about slaves which when reduced to its lowest common denominator equates to property rights which equates to revenue which equates to loss of free labor towhich Whites at the time preferred to keep rather than let go. And they fought a war in order to preserve that right, that status quo, that way of life.

    And they lost. And as such, their beloved battle flag needs to come down as it acts as an unpleasant reminder of oppression to a people. Other than keeping it for Confederate Memorial sites/events/holiday or personal, individual sentimental reasons, there's no other reason for keeping the Confederate Flag waving over state property.

    In any case, I'm glad to see that flag coming down all across the south. It's long overdue.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 07-05-15 at 07:12 PM.
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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by JC Callender View Post
    But Lincoln ultimately thought slavery was horrible for slaves and masters alike, unlike the South, and that imo is the moral high ground. And you say he believed AA's were inferior to whites, how could he understand the potential of African Americans when they rarely had the chance to prove it?
    You could claim almost literally all of these same things about Robert E. Lee. While he was a slave owner, he was known for being an unusually kind one, who ran an estate where the slaves were reportedly "their master's master." He also had some very serious religious and personal misgivings about the institution of slavery.

    He simply happened to feel that the institution was too deeply rooted to be ripped out overnight, and that attempting to do so would harm whites and blacks alike as such. He also felt that it would be immoral for him to take up arms against his own homeland, so he sided with the Confederacy instead of the Union.

    Given the fact that the Confederate battle flag was historically the flag of Robert E. Lee's own Army of Northern Virginia, it actually honors him and the men who fought under him more than it does the actual Confederacy itself, or its cause. Again, the simple fact of the matter is that this issue is no where near as cut and dry as people like to make out.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 07-05-15 at 07:34 PM.

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by HorseLoverGirl View Post
    God help us all if she does
    Not a fan of diversity, huh? A female with a touch of dot Indian I believe...cant have that....unless she had a D by her name of course, right?
    "Opportunity does not come knocking. It is usually running down the street, you have to chase and tackle it." - Sheriff David Clarke, Milwaukee County.

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    You could claim almost literally all of these same things about Robert E. Lee. While he was a slave owner, he was known for being an unusually kind one, who ran an estate where the slaves were reportedly "their master's master." He also had some very serious religious and personal misgivings about the institution of slavery.

    He simply happened to feel that the institution was too deeply rooted to be ripped out overnight, and that attempting to do so would harm whites and blacks alike as such. He also felt that it would be immoral for him to take up arms against his own homeland, so he sided with the Confederacy instead of the Union.

    Given the fact that the Confederate battle flag was actually the flag of Robert E. Lee's own Army of Northern Virginia, it actually honors him and the men who fought under him more than it does the actual Confederacy itself, or its cause. Again, the simple fact of the matter is that this issue is no where near as cut and dry as people like to make out.
    The bottom line is Lee took his talents to the Confederacy and more than likely prolonged both the war and slavery. I honestly don't see a civil war without the issue of slavery.

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by JC Callender View Post
    But Lincoln ultimately thought slavery was horrible for slaves and masters alike, unlike the South, and that imo is the moral high ground. And you say he believed AA's were inferior to whites, how could he understand the potential of African Americans when they rarely had the chance to prove it?
    Blacks proved their potential to be slave owners at that time.
    "Opportunity does not come knocking. It is usually running down the street, you have to chase and tackle it." - Sheriff David Clarke, Milwaukee County.

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