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Thread: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

  1. #221
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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    At the "lowest common denominator" level, it boils down to economics, and the conflict of interests which existed between the North and South.

    The South ultimately rebelled for reasons very similar to those of the American colonies during the Revolution. They felt that a Northern government, in which they had wholly inadequate representation (after all, literally no Southern states voted for Lincoln's presidency) was making unilateral decisions about their future and their livelihoods, without the best interests of the South in mind. They decided to push the issue of voluntary secession from the Union - something which was widely held to be a Constitutional right at the time - in order to correct this state of affairs.

    Were they ultimately correct in doing so? No.

    However, let's not pretend that the issue revolved around nothing besides irrational Southern hated of African-Americans. That simply wasn't the case.
    Woe! Let me stop you there. No one said it was about hatred. That vile didn't truly rue its ugly head in earnest until after the South lost the Civil War. Yes, there were some who treated Black slaves appallingly, but the outright hatred didn't come until later, after that southern way of life so many held so dear (and still defend in principle) was forever disrupted.

    Plenty of Southerners (Lee included) had misgivings about slavery. They simply wanted to address the issue on their own terms.
    Hence, the reason both indentured servants (i.e., share croppers) and the Fugitive Slave Act were ushered into existence. Both were ways to hold unto "cheap labor" at any cost to: 1) keep labor cost down and 2) undermine the new legalized freedom of Blacks. Yes, the North and the South used both to their advantage but it was more detrimental to Blacks in the South than to those who lived in the North at the time.

    A) It IS being primarily flown over war memorials, and by private persons. The Far Left and PC authoritarians in general are trying to deny Southerners even that right.
    Then they are wrong for going that extra mile, IMO, just as both sides were - North and South but in particular the South - for exploiting Blacks after Emancipation using both sharecropping and the Fugitive Slave Act as unfair labor tactics to keep free Blacks under their thumb.

    B) By this logic, are we to assume that Native Americans should "just get over it" and throw away their cultural heritage as well? They "lost" a Hell of a lot worse than the South ever did.
    Not at all. But Native Americans for the most part made the decision to be separate from the American populace while also being afforded the protections the United States provides by virtue of all U.S. Indian Reservations coming under the jurisdiction of U.S. laws. That's not to say that even after corralling them into somewhat isolated parts of the country that the U.S. government didn't try to take advantage of them (again and again), but despite their efforts Native American Indians still retain "their land" and are pretty much left alone today. Sure, they're having their share of problems (which we won't get into because that would derail the tread all the more), but they aren't facing the same level of racial scrutiny Blacks seem to still be facing today.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 07-06-15 at 09:32 PM.
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  2. #222
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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    1. This ignores the historical context of the Confederate flag. The flag was created before the Civil War and used as a symbol to represent a 'nation' that wanted to keep slavery as can be seen in the reasoning for secession behind every Confederate state.

    2. The 13th Amendment does allow for slavery, see the bolded portion. It states that "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." (https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiii)

    3. The Emancipation Proclamation freed slaves being held in specifically rebel states. Southern states that sided with the Union were still allowed to keep their slaves.

    4. The North really didn't need the EP to gain more troops. Simply put, the industrial capacity of the Union states were so great that it outnumbered the South.
    I see with #3 you admit that Lincoln was not the saint people have been indoctrinated to think he was. Glad to see someone else admit it.
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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Texmex View Post
    I'm done discussing this with her. After while she will be telling us that Grant surrendered to Lee!
    You can't run with the big dogs stay on the porch. I guess the facts got to ya finally huh?
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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    What does that have to do with anything. And how big was the government intended to be. And why would we care today what guys reading by candle light, and still trotting to a shed in the back yard to take a **** think about what size the federal government should be today? They couldn't conceive that we might ever be able to pollute the air we breath requiring an environmental protection agency to regulate it. Or that we'd have an interstate highway system that would need to be run, or people trying to cross our borders and take from us what we lifted off the Indians, requiring a federal border patrol. They wouldn't have conceived that we'd have airwaves that would need an agency to monitor, or the ability to travel into space that would require a NASA. And so many other things that they couldn't have perceived.
    So in other words you're glad this country has strayed from the way the founders intended for it to be?
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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Because times change and state governments tend to care less about individual rights than the federal government. State governments are much more likely to become tyrannies of the majorities due to having such lower standards to changing their constitutions, the protections granted to their citizens, and in many cases having a less diverse population in power.
    Yet if you read true American history, the founders did not want a strong central government, in other words what we have now. Hence the reason for the 10th amendment, the most ignored amendment ever.
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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by HorseLoverGirl View Post
    Yet if you read true American history, the founders did not want a strong central government, in other words what we have now. Hence the reason for the 10th amendment, the most ignored amendment ever.
    Some founders didn't, others did. There is a reason the Articles of Confederation failed, they gave far too much power to the states and made the federal government pretty impotent.

    But regardless of what the Founders might have wanted, we saw how destructive it was to give states more power, more rights than the individual people (also given rights alongside states in the 10th Amendment), hence why the majority (it does take quite a lot to change the US Constitution) choose to change the Constitution in a way that limited states' rights, states' power in favor of individual rights. That is much more important to me than states' rights, particularly since many of the most influential founding fathers were very much against pure democracies and/or tyrannies of the majorities.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Some founders didn't, others did. There is a reason the Articles of Confederation failed, they gave far too much power to the states and made the federal government pretty impotent.

    But regardless of what the Founders might have wanted, we saw how destructive it was to give states more power, more rights than the individual people (also given rights alongside states in the 10th Amendment), hence why the majority (it does take quite a lot to change the US Constitution) choose to change the Constitution in a way that limited states' rights, states' power in favor of individual rights. That is much more important to me than states' rights, particularly since many of the most influential founding fathers were very much against pure democracies and/or tyrannies of the majorities.
    I know it takes a lot to change the Constitution. That's why we only have 27 amendments, and one of those was to repeal another. Of course the fact is the states started to really lose their voice when the 17th amendment was adopted. As much as I like being able to have a say in who goes to the Senate from NC, since I don't trust most of the turkeys in Raleigh any further than I can throw them, the states did have more say before the 17th amendment came along.
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  8. #228
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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by HorseLoverGirl View Post
    I see with #3 you admit that Lincoln was not the saint people have been indoctrinated to think he was. Glad to see someone else admit it.
    No president, not even Jefferson Davis is/was a saint.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    No president, not even Jefferson Davis is/was a saint.
    That I agree with. Politicians are politicians.
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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by HorseLoverGirl View Post
    You can't run with the big dogs stay on the porch. I guess the facts got to ya finally huh?
    I think the absurdities you've uttered did it for him.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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