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Thread: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Lee was an officer of the North before the war and had to follow the code just like Sherman. The fact that Lee upheld the code and the north did not is telling.



    Do you really want to go with Lieber Code? The whole point of the code was that Lincoln wanted to target civilians which was illegal in the 1806 code.
    What? Of course I would cite superseding law over invalid law. It was an excellent piece of legal craftsmanship which served as a template for the Geneva Conventions and other treaty iterations. Further, none of this changes the fact that Sherman's campaigns while highly severe against property were perfectly humane in their dealings with the general public. Especially when it came to the liberation of hundreds of thousands of Southern slaves.

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    What? Of course I would cite superseding law over invalid law. It was an excellent piece of legal craftsmanship which served as a template for the Geneva Conventions and other treaty iterations. Further, none of this changes the fact that Sherman's campaigns while highly severe against property were perfectly humane in their dealings with the general public. Especially when it came to the liberation of hundreds of thousands of Southern slaves.
    So all those women, and lets be honest men, that were raped and killed were against his will? Is that why Sherman never punished anyone for it?

    Your so called code said the following:

    Article 15: “military necessity” and its definition allows “destruction of property” – that is, all property can be destroyed if determined to be of “military necessity.”

    Article 22: “The principle has been more and more acknowledged that they unarmed citizen is to be spared in person, property and honor as much as the exigencies of war allow.”

    Article 23: “Private Citizens are no longer murdered, enslaved or carried off to distant parts and the inoffensive individual is as little disturbed in his private relations as the commander of hostile troops can afford to grant in the overruling demands of vigorous war.”

    Notice how they kept giving themselves an out? Lincoln was responsible for that.

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    So all those women, and lets be honest men, that were raped and killed were against his will? Is that why Sherman never punished anyone for it?

    Your so called code said the following:

    Article 15: “military necessity” and its definition allows “destruction of property” – that is, all property can be destroyed if determined to be of “military necessity.”

    Article 22: “The principle has been more and more acknowledged that they unarmed citizen is to be spared in person, property and honor as much as the exigencies of war allow.”

    Article 23: “Private Citizens are no longer murdered, enslaved or carried off to distant parts and the inoffensive individual is as little disturbed in his private relations as the commander of hostile troops can afford to grant in the overruling demands of vigorous war.”

    Notice how they kept giving themselves an out? Lincoln was responsible for that.
    There is little, if any, evidence to indicate that a significant amount of rapes or murders occurred. Luckily as you obliquely note Sherman probably followed the principle underlying the code reasonably well. We can thus be satisfied that Sherman followed the laws of the United States and in doing so managed to shatter the backbone of the Confederacy. =)

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Paperview View Post
    There were bad actors on both side, but what you are parroting is Lost Cause nonsense.

    Let's hear from the acclaimed Southern Historian, Shelby Foote:

    "Sherman, in his march across Georgia and up through Carolina, had sixty thousand men with him. I don't know what percentage of them were illiterate. I know there were very few men in there with a delicacy of manners that you'd expect nowadays.

    And the whole time he made that march, those sixty thousand men, I had not heard of one case of rape. And that is one of the finest compliments I know you can pay this country and the soldiers it produced that we did not engage in these usual horrendous things that are common in civil war. The fact that we spoke the same language is not what made us close together. In fact, in most civil wars they speak the same language, and they're very savage with each other. But somehow we didn't do that. "


    A Visit from Historian Shelby Foote | Humanities
    Well it does often depend on a historians bias, his objective and agenda at times.

    Generals Sherman and Sheridan: The War Criminals - Riverside Civil War History | Examiner.com
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironfist17 View Post
    Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag' | US news | The Guardian
    How could it happen that a flag which has always been a symbol of love for the South now represents racism and hatred? I feel sorry for those people who have been sticking confederate flags on their license plates since forever. Now they are all considered bigots and nazis. Maybe it's time to chill up a bit and just forget about one mentally disabled racist who used it as a symbol of his racial hatred? Because it will only distance the southerners from the rest of the country.
    You started with a false premise. The flag hasn't always been a symbol of "love for the South." It was waved by whites protesting civil rights for blacks all across the South. Do a google image search, you'll find the pictures.

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Well it does often depend on a historians bias, his objective and agenda at times.

    Generals Sherman and Sheridan: The War Criminals - Riverside Civil War History | Examiner.com
    Dude, you're comparing Shelby Foote to a Sons of Confederate Veterans blogger and a web designer - not a historian - who "has read hundreds of books about the Civil War." ?

    Seriously?


    lol

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Paperview View Post
    Dude, you're comparing Shelby Foote to a Sons of Confederate Veterans blogger and a web designer - not a historian - who "has read hundreds of books about the Civil War." ?

    Seriously?


    lol
    Yeah, good fellows these.

    The young bloods of the South; sons of planters, lawyers about towns, good billiard players and sportsmen, men who never did any work and never will. War suits them. They are splendid riders, first rate shots and utterly reckless. These men must all be killed or employed by us before we can hope for peace....Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman

    The more Indians we can kill this year the fewer we will need to kill the next, because the more I see of the Indians the more convinced I become that they must either all be killed or be maintained as a species of pauper. Their attempts at civilization is ridiculous... Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman

    Look to the South and you who went with us through that land can best say if they have not been fearfully punished. Mourning is in every household, desolation written in broad characters across the whole face of their country, cities in ashes and fields laid waste, their commerce gone, their system of labor annihilated and destroyed. Ruin and poverty and distress everywhere, and now pestilence adding to the very cap sheaf of their stack of misery...Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman, the man who left a 60 mile wide, 300 mile long path of death and desolation across GA and up through SC.

    I have destroyed over 2,000 barns filled with wheat, hay and farming implements; over 70 mills filled with flour and wheat, and have driven in front of the Army over 4,000 head of stock and have killed and issued to the troops not less than 3,000 sheep. Tomorrow I will continue the destruction down to Fisher’s Mill. When this is completed, the Valley from Winchester to Staunton, 92 miles, will have but little in it for man or beast.....from an Oct. 7, 1864 report to Gen. Grant from Gen. Sheridan.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by JC Callender View Post
    So secession was essentially about taxes? I've never heard that one before. Taxes on everything or just specific things?
    Amazing. Tariffs were at the time of recession at a recently low ebb, but for some reason..... can't figure it out, the South seceded before Lincoln ever took office. Wonder what that reason could be.....hmmmm....

    Mississippi:

    In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

    Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world.

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You started with a false premise. The flag hasn't always been a symbol of "love for the South." It was waved by whites protesting civil rights for blacks all across the South. Do a google image search, you'll find the pictures.


    Heres an intern who works for the only current black senator

    Byron Thomas Sends Email Asking Staff To Say Pledge of Allegiance | News One

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Considering that I wasn't alive back then I expect nothing. But as for today, I expect people to be honest about why southern states seceded and not sugar coat it. It was about slaves which when reduced to its lowest common denominator equates to property rights which equates to revenue which equates to loss of free labor towhich Whites at the time preferred to keep rather than let go. And they fought a war in order to preserve that right, that status quo, that way of life.

    And they lost. And as such, their beloved battle flag needs to come down as it acts as an unpleasant reminder of oppression to a people. Other than keeping it for Confederate Memorial sites/events/holiday or personal, individual sentimental reasons, there's no other reason for keeping the Confederate Flag waving over state property.

    In any case, I'm glad to see that flag coming down all across the south. It's long overdue.
    I agree with all that, but we really don't have to refight the Civil War or agree on its causes. The more relevant history of the Rebel flag is in the 1950s and 1960s when it was raised by SC while they were fighting against extending basic civil rights to blacks.

    Moving this discussion back to the 1860s just does more to obscure or bury the history of the flag in my lifetime. One example:


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