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Thread: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    The North never really needed slavery, as it never had the climate to make it profitable in the first place. By way of contrast, the South was an agrarian economy which had basically been built up around the plantation system. Of course they had more slaves, and had more reason to be defensive about the system being removed. It was their entire livelihood.

    That does not change the fact, however, that it was never their primary reason for going to war from an ideological standpoint, nor that the ending of was slavery was never the North's primary goal in trying to suppress the Confederacy. The war was always primarily about economic and political self-determination in the South, and keeping the Union intact in the North. The issue of slavery simply happened to have been one of the major catalysts responsible for driving the two to blows.

    The North had slave states on its side for the the duration of the war. Lincoln himself was also known to believe that African Americans were generally inferior to whites - he simple supported deporting them all, rather than keeping them as slaves.
    This is more misconception than reality. With the settlement and cultivation of the Midwest the 'Free States' began to swiftly surpass the agricultural capacity of the South. Even with a smaller agricultural labor pool the 'Free States' had, before the dawn of the Civil War in 1850, reached a point where they were producing about 500 million bushels of various crops, especially cereals, while the South reached roughly 481 million of the same. In the year before the war itself, in 1860, the 'Free States' had "...nearly twice the value of farm machinery per acre and per farm worker as did the slave states, leading to increased productivity. As a result, in 1860, the Northern states produced half of the nation's corn, four-fifths of its wheat, and seven-eighths of its oats." http://www.nps.gov/resources/story.htm?id=251

    This gap grew in the years leading up to the Civil War. By the time the war broke out the North was not just the dominant industrials, commercial, and scientific power on the continent--it was also the dominant agricultural force. During the war Northern farmers increased their share of the market and made millions due to massive demand from Europe and the Middle East for American foodstuffs.

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    This is more misconception than reality. With the settlement and cultivation of the Midwest the 'Free States' began to swiftly surpass the agricultural capacity of the South. Even with a smaller agricultural labor pool the 'Free States' had, before the dawn of the Civil War in 1850, reached a point where they were producing about 500 million bushels of various crops, especially cereals, while the South reached roughly 481 million of the same. This gap grew in the years leading up to the Civil War. By the time the war broke out the North was not just the dominant industrials, commercial, and scientific power on the continent--it was also the dominant agricultural force. During the war Northern farmers increased their share of the market and made millions due to massive demand from Europe and the Middle East for American foodstuffs.
    Why did you name yourself after a man that ordered his men to born cities and let his men kill, rape and torture innocents? Why are you actively supporting a war criminal? Why are you supporting a side of the war that won the war by committing war crimes?

    Why would any informed individual with an ounce of moral character whatsoever name themselves after Sherman?
    Last edited by Henrin; 07-06-15 at 10:40 AM.

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Why did you name yourself after a man that ordered his men to born cities and let his men kill, rape and torture innocents? Why are you actively supporting a war criminal? Why are you supporting a side of the war that won the war by committing war crimes?

    Why would any informed individual with an ounce of moral character whatsoever name themselves after Sherman?
    Because I adore Sherman. He understood what needed to be done to break the will of Southern resistance and shattered the Confederacy. Furthermore his legacy has been clouded by the smears of several generations of Lost Cause historians. Luckily the historical record is increasingly being rectified.

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Because I adore Sherman. He understood what needed to be done to break the will of Southern resistance and shattered the Confederacy. Furthermore his legacy has been clouded by the smears of several generations of Lost Cause historians. Luckily the historical record is increasingly being rectified.
    You mean the historical fact that his men killed, raped and tortured innocents? That everything he did would be seen today as a war crime? You mean like how he used the most barbaric and sadistic tactic known to man to make another man give up?

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    You mean the historical fact that his men killed, raped and tortured innocents? That everything he did would be seen today as a war crime? You mean like how he used the most barbaric and sadistic tactic known to man to make another man give up?
    A small minority did, just as a small minority if Southern soldiers did (and captured blacks to be 'sold south'). Confederate troops burned, ransomed, and destroyed numerous northern towns, roads, farms, etc. Fortunately the forces of the Union were in a position to inflict damage to property on such a massive scale that it helped break the back of Southern resistance, all while keeping civilian casualties exceedingly low. The South sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind.

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    You mean the historical fact that his men killed, raped and tortured innocents? That everything he did would be seen today as a war crime? You mean like how he used the most barbaric and sadistic tactic known to man to make another man give up?
    There were bad actors on both side, but what you are parroting is Lost Cause nonsense.

    Let's hear from the acclaimed Southern Historian, Shelby Foote:

    "Sherman, in his march across Georgia and up through Carolina, had sixty thousand men with him. I don't know what percentage of them were illiterate. I know there were very few men in there with a delicacy of manners that you'd expect nowadays.

    And the whole time he made that march, those sixty thousand men, I had not heard of one case of rape. And that is one of the finest compliments I know you can pay this country and the soldiers it produced that we did not engage in these usual horrendous things that are common in civil war. The fact that we spoke the same language is not what made us close together. In fact, in most civil wars they speak the same language, and they're very savage with each other. But somehow we didn't do that. "


    A Visit from Historian Shelby Foote | Humanities

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    You mean the historical fact that his men killed, raped and tortured innocents? That everything he did would be seen today as a war crime? You mean like how he used the most barbaric and sadistic tactic known to man to make another man give up?
    Yes. This is the folly of war. CRIMES are committed!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    A small minority did, just as a small minority if Southern soldiers did (and captured blacks to be 'sold south'). Confederate troops burned, ransomed, and destroyed numerous northern towns, roads, farms, etc. Fortunately the forces of the Union were in a position to inflict damage to property on such a massive scale that it helped break the back of Southern resistance, all while keeping civilian casualties exceedingly low. The South sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind.
    Which General Lee condemned and would punish officers for.

    On the other hand, Sherman and many of his soldiers was subject to be put to death for their actions.

    1806 Code:

    “Any officer or soldier who shall quit his post or colors to plunder and pillage shall suffer death or other such punishment as shall be ordered by a sentence of a general court martial.”

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Which General Lee condemned and would punish officers for.

    On the other hand, Sherman and many of his soldiers was subject to be put to death for their actions.

    1806 Code:

    “Any officer or soldier who shall quit his post or colors to plunder and pillage shall suffer death or other such punishment as shall be ordered by a sentence of a general court martial.”
    Because Robert E. Lee was the only Confederate General.

    Furthermore the 1806 Code was replaced by the Lieber Code in 1863, well before Sherman's glorious March to the Sea. While he probably bent, or perhaps even broke, sections of the code he certainly adhered to its principles which were "...that “virtually any use of force was permissible if required by military necessity,” which produced “both a broad limit on war’s violence and a robust license to destroy.” The best wars lasted the shortest amount of time. “The more vigorously wars are pursued,” wrote Lieber in the code, “the better it is for humanity. Sharp wars are brief.”

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    Re: Nikki Haley: 'I could not look my kids in the face and justify that flag'

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Because Robert E. Lee was the only Confederate General.
    Lee was an officer of the North before the war and had to follow the code just like Sherman. The fact that Lee upheld the code and the north did not is telling.

    Furthermore the 1806 Code was replaced by the Lieber Code in 1863, well before Sherman's glorious March to the Sea. While he probably bent, or perhaps even broke, sections of the code he certainly adhered to its principles which were "...that “virtually any use of force was permissible if required by military necessity,” which produced “both a broad limit on war’s violence and a robust license to destroy.” The best wars lasted the shortest amount of time. “The more vigorously wars are pursued,” wrote Lieber in the code, “the better it is for humanity. Sharp wars are brief.”
    Do you really want to go with Lieber Code? The whole point of the code was that Lincoln wanted to target civilians which was illegal in the 1806 code.

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