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Thread: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

  1. #211
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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Okay, well, as with Don, we'll agree to disagree.

    I just don't get the pass that Merkel, Juncker et al seem to get from you guys. You recognise that their 7-year project has been a complete failure and that they've offered nothing but more of the same, yet your invective is all reserved for the poor, bloody sods trying to sort out a mess not of their own making. Even if their negotiating had been as inept as you've said, which it hasn't been, it still wasn't them that ran up the debt, corruptly profited from public funds and bail outs, and weren't the ones who failed to implement a rescue strategy.
    I agree on they not having ruined the Greece economy over years, on implementing a rescue strategy I couldn't disagree more.

    But let's just do that.

    As to Merkel and Juncker, I have no particular love for either of them. Nothing to do with the current thing but with stuff that would explode this thread so I'll leave it lay.

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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Yes, we do.

    I think that she has come to the decision, impelled by intense political pressure from within her government, to place the German national interest, and those of German banks, ahead of that 'intense commitment' to European unity.

    We've already noted that economically speaking Germany benefits hugely from a weaker Euro, and a properly restructured Greek debt and subsequent recovery within the Eurozone would threaten that in the longer term. I also think she's been listening to her tame economists and their CBA of all the options and decided on the Grexit as Germany's least-worst scenario. I genuinely don't believe European unity is anywhere near the top of her priority list.
    We'll see what happens. Hopefully, if Greece offers something credible and reasonable, it will be given the aid it needs and remain within the Eurozone.

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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Chagos View Post
    I'm falling prey more and more to the suspicion that Tsipras wanted out from the getgo and that the whole thing was planned before he took office.
    I worry about that, too. I hope I'm wrong, but I find it difficult to believe that incompetence, alone, could explain some of Greece's recent actions e.g., its failing to offer anything yesterday, the very vague request today, etc. Greece could easily have modified one of the earlier proposals to make an offer it sincerely expected would be acceptable and come prepared yesterday with something concrete.

  4. #214
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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I see. Do you really think anyone but Americans would know what the biggest hub airport in the SE USA would be? I didn't even know Delta airlines was still flying. How about TWA? Braniff?
    A majority of people on this forum are Americans I also can't see that you are a foreigner on my phone. Forgive my god awful assumption that is easily understood with a few google searches
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  6. #216
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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Chagos View Post
    Whereas this detracts at least geographically from the topic, to those that do not share Andalublue's and my "totally irrelevant" place of residence and the lack of economic understanding of our country's situation that must subsequently result from this irrelevance, here's something from 2012

    Spain real estate ‘madness’ continues despite burst housing bubble | Financial Post

    To wit (excerpt): Encinar was mistaken, the decline was/is far bigger.

    Now back on topic.

    What are you even talking about right now? What about the reality of this situation confuses you? What in that link do you imagine supports your position?

    There was a global construction and real estate bubble. That is a fact. Identical things happened in countries around the globe. To then isolate a national economy in the midst of a global economic trend makes no sense. You can't pretend Spain's real estate and construction bubble was somehow unrelated to the global real estate and construction bubble.

    Financial institutions across the globe were involved in the same sort of complex financial speculation in real estate and construction. When a bank gives out a loan, then securitizes the debt and sells it off to investors, they make a profit either way. In such a scenario, the risk has been removed. Which makes speculation more likely. Speculation then drives up prices, which makes speculation more likely. And on and on and on. Without the financial speculation, there may have still been a construction and housing bubble, but it would have been much smaller. Which means no financial collapse on this scale. If there was never a real estate and construction bubble of that size, there would currently be no debt crisis in Spain. If there hadn't been austerity imposed on Spain, there would be a smaller debt problem in Spain.

    All of this is inarguably true. You can pretend otherwise and act like you are ignoring me because your proximity based expertise means I am below consideration, but the reality is your ideas and understanding are entirely bankrupt, and you are incapable of countering my arguments in a coherent and substantive manner.
    I'm a Tarte, what!! You want some of this??

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    Educator GreatNews2night's Avatar
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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    One big issue I see here is that Greece may become a hub for Isis and other terrorists. What better to use as a switching station than a place with people who look like you, a nation not really all that threatening, and then with money you could just hop to any nation you want.
    What??? Have you ever been to Greece? They have NOTHING in common with the Muslim Arab countries that have been targeted by ISIS. Their language is Greek which bears no similitude to Arabic whatsoever. Their religion is overwhelmingly Greek Orthodox Christian. Their population is homogeneously white.

    Do you realize that the Greeks were the freaking founders of Western civilization?

    How can someone be so uninformed to think that ISIS would have an easy time in Greece???

  8. #218
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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Hehe,

    Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes


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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Reportedly, this is the Greek proposal.

    ANA-MPA: The Greek government's full proposal to the Eurogroup

    If so, it's a dramatic shift to the creditors' earlier positions. Had the Greek government had the foresight to accept what was available to them back in June, the prolonged bank holiday, capital controls, and resulting macroeconomic damage could have been avoided.

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    Educator GreatNews2night's Avatar
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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Reportedly, this is the Greek proposal.

    ANA-MPA: The Greek government's full proposal to the Eurogroup

    If so, it's a dramatic shift to the creditors' earlier positions. Had the Greek government had the foresight to accept what was available to them back in June, the prolonged bank holiday, capital controls, and resulting macroeconomic damage could have been avoided.
    That's exactly what I expected to happen - a somewhat modified proposal just to give the impression that the PM was able to negotiate better terms based on the referendum. It's a win-win for Tsipras: if it works, he's the hero; if it doesn't, it's the fault of the Greek people since they voted the way they did.

    This whole thing was a political coup.

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