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Thread: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

  1. #171
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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Frodly View Post
    Well, it IS mostly the fault of the banks and creditors, so blaming them makes a lot of sense.

    I don't own a Che Guevara flag and have no interest in ever doing so.

    Austerity IS the problem.

    A growing greek economy would be far more capable of paying off any debts, but austerity has led to a great depression in Greece.

    I figured I would respond in the same format as you.....
    Where does Greece get the money to spend its way into prosperity ?
    " If no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else ? "
    Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    One big issue I see here is that Greece may become a hub for Isis and other terrorists. What better to use as a switching station than a place with people who look like you, a nation not really all that threatening, and then with money you could just hop to any nation you want.
    OK, that made me laugh.

    You don't know Greece much, eh?

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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Frodly View Post
    This problem is someone else's fault. There was no Eurozone debt crises until banks and financial institutions crashed the global economy and created one. Of the countries currently facing crises, only greece even had moderately high debt before the economic collapse (t was 107% of GDP). That is high, but not very dissimilar from many other countries whose economies are doing fine and have done fine in the past. In Spain, debt was 26% of GDP, which is very low, and the Spanish actually ran surpluses in the lead up to the collapse. Their crises is 100% created by outside institutions creating an economic collapse. Greece on the other hand had a larger role to play in their own downfall, but even so most of the blame lies at the feet of the financial institutions responsible for the collapse of the economy and the wealthy Eurozone countries that have imposed insane austerity measures on Greece. If those austerity measures hadn't been imposed, there is no way the Greek economy would have contracted by 25%. How can creditors expect a country to pay its debts, while imposing on that country measures, which lead to a 25% decrease in economic output. It is an impossible position Greece is in. It is bad economics. The only reason it is being done, is to protect the powerful (the creditors) and because there is a moral crusade under way to punish the Greeks for their failures, despite the fact that many of their problems are not of their own making.
    Your analysis of Spain is grossly wrong. Where not uninfluenced by the US origin crisis, they'd created their own real estate bubble to the point of insanity and it finally burst. The Spanish crash was to the far larger extent of own making.

    As is the current debt crisis of Greece.

    That outside myopia in instituting more adequate measures payed a role is not under dispute where I am concerned. But this constant "it was solely everybody else's fault" is childish.

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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Frodly View Post
    Of course considering the Democratic will of the Greek people would be cowardice in the mind of right wing sycophants for the powerful.
    I've pointed out elsewhere that management of the common currency is not decided in Athens and not by Greece alone. The same thing applies to whether a community of nations helps an ailing member out and how. I don't recall that the rest of Europe got to vote in that particular referendum, despite being affected by it.

    But believe you me, it'll vote in other instances. Not so much in referendums but in equally sovereign parliaments.

    As to calling others sycophants (in return), go look in the mirror. This isn't class struggle, no matter how you and your opposition wants to turn it that way.

    If I were Greek and had you championing my cause, I'd stick a sock in yer gob. An elephant size one, the sock not the gob.

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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I think it's a wrong one. I've been watching masses of coverage and every time a Greek person, from politicians to professors to people in the street, they've said, "We got ourselves into this mess," more or less. The point is, the Troika have been digging them deeper into it with their failed solutions, not helping them dig themselves out.
    Since I said I'd respond again when something of sense comes, here goes.

    I've always agreed on the myopic incompetence of the rescue measures installed, even where much lies on the hesitancy of the Greek governments preceding Syriza in reform installment.

    Where I've seen coverage of both attitudes, i.e. infantile blaming of everyone else and acceptance of own responsibility just as much, I'm in contact with a number of middle class entrepreneurs that I used to do business with when I was still active in the field. That contact had become infrequent in past years but is currently more regular.

    Not one is blaming the outside, not even the Troika, at least not as emanating the lion's share of the problem. All have been groaning under the system for years and have decried bureaucracy, kleptocracy, corruption and general inefficiency forever.

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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    It's that very boat anchor that keeps Germany's exports outside Europe relatively cheap. Your Mercedes would have been more expensive in Deutchmarks, and they wouldn't sell so many abroad.
    False. The DM was much weaker than the Euro is even today.

  7. #177
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    Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Chagos View Post
    OK, that made me laugh.

    You don't know Greece much, eh?


    Does it surprise that they would have similar features living in the same geographic area that would have been visited by the same historical people's (Greeks, Egyptians, Romans, Arabs)? If you think I'm wrong: you are kidding yourself.

    Add:

    I know what Mediterranean people's look like. I'm related to Greeks and I went to college with many Arabs.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  8. #178
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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post


    Does it surprise that they would have similar features living in the same geographic area that would have been visited by the same historical people's (Greeks, Egyptians, Romans, Arabs)? If you think I'm wrong: you are kidding yourself.

    Add:

    I know what Mediterranean people's look like. I'm related to Greeks and I went to college with many Arabs.
    Hmmm....they remind me of Austrians....

    Conchita-Wurst.jpg
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Hmmm....they remind me of Austrians....

    Conchita-Wurst.jpg
    Lol

    My point was that Greece is to an Aran what Mexico is for an El Salvadoran...you know...rather than Connecticut to an El Salvadoran
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  10. #180
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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Lol

    My point was that Greece is to an Aran what Mexico is for an El Salvadoran...you know...rather than Connecticut to an El Salvadoran
    Aran?

    I do hope you don't mean 'Aryan', the mythological race definer.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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