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Thread: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

  1. #141
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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by pragmatic View Post
    It seems that from the Greek point of view, all the issues/problems they are facing is "someone else's fault". And they want a painless solution. (which just ain't going to happen.)

    Just a perception.

    This problem is someone else's fault. There was no Eurozone debt crises until banks and financial institutions crashed the global economy and created one. Of the countries currently facing crises, only greece even had moderately high debt before the economic collapse (t was 107% of GDP). That is high, but not very dissimilar from many other countries whose economies are doing fine and have done fine in the past. In Spain, debt was 26% of GDP, which is very low, and the Spanish actually ran surpluses in the lead up to the collapse. Their crises is 100% created by outside institutions creating an economic collapse. Greece on the other hand had a larger role to play in their own downfall, but even so most of the blame lies at the feet of the financial institutions responsible for the collapse of the economy and the wealthy Eurozone countries that have imposed insane austerity measures on Greece. If those austerity measures hadn't been imposed, there is no way the Greek economy would have contracted by 25%. How can creditors expect a country to pay its debts, while imposing on that country measures, which lead to a 25% decrease in economic output. It is an impossible position Greece is in. It is bad economics. The only reason it is being done, is to protect the powerful (the creditors) and because there is a moral crusade under way to punish the Greeks for their failures, despite the fact that many of their problems are not of their own making.
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  2. #142
    Educator Frodly's Avatar
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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    The referendum was Tsipras's cowardly attempt of pushing off his responsibility as a leader on the people of Greece.

    Remember, they've already voted.

    That way if they voted No and worse came to worse ( and it will ) he can claim say " dont blame me, you people voted for this "

    Socialist coward.

    Of course considering the Democratic will of the Greek people would be cowardice in the mind of right wing sycophants for the powerful.
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  3. #143
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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I think it's a wrong one. I've been watching masses of coverage and every time a Greek person, from politicians to professors to people in the street, they've said, "We got ourselves into this mess," more or less. The point is, the Troika have been digging them deeper into it with their failed solutions, not helping them dig themselves out.
    Hope you are correct. That would be a refreshing attitude to hear from them....

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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    With Greece's banks shuttered, one would think that the current Greek government would have a sense of urgency in seeking new assistance. Not exactly. Today came and went without the Greek government's submitting a new proposal. From CNBC:

    Greece didn't submit new written proposals on Tuesday, but instead made an oral presentation—with a written version supposedly on its way soon.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...-ahead-15.html (Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead)

    Reportedly, Greece will soon be submitting a formal written proposal (Greece to Make Official Request Keeping Chances of Aid Alive - Bloomberg Business).

    This almost astonishing lack of urgency by the Greek government will probably result in the ECB's maintaining its ELA financing to Greece's banks at current levels tomorrow, rather than lifting it so that the banks can re-open, unless Greece submits its proposal ahead of the ECB's decision and there is sufficient promise to expect it to lead to a rapid agreement with the EU/ECB/IMF. In the meantime, Greek economic activity is diminishing as a result of the absence of a functioning financial system.

  5. #145
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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by pragmatic View Post
    Hope you are correct. That would be a refreshing attitude to hear from them....
    Have you not been watching the coverage? BBC's Panorama last night interviewed quite a wide range of people both Nai and Oxi voters. They pretty much all said the same thing about how Greece got into the mess.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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  6. #146
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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    With Greece's banks shuttered, one would think that the current Greek government would have a sense of urgency in seeking new assistance. Not exactly. Today came and went without the Greek government's submitting a new proposal. From CNBC:

    Greece didn't submit new written proposals on Tuesday, but instead made an oral presentation—with a written version supposedly on its way soon.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...-ahead-15.html (Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead)

    Reportedly, Greece will soon be submitting a formal written proposal (Greece to Make Official Request Keeping Chances of Aid Alive - Bloomberg Business).

    This almost astonishing lack of urgency by the Greek government will probably result in the ECB's maintaining its ELA financing to Greece's banks at current levels tomorrow, rather than lifting it so that the banks can re-open, unless Greece submits its proposal ahead of the ECB's decision and there is sufficient promise to expect it to lead to a rapid agreement with the EU/ECB/IMF. In the meantime, Greek economic activity is diminishing as a result of the absence of a functioning financial system.
    Astonishing lack of urgency? They've had one day since the referendum. They've had 10 days since calling it and just 5 months since taking power. The Troika has been dealing with the sovereign debt crisis for 7 years and haven't come up with a practical solution.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Astonishing lack of urgency? They've had one day since the referendum. They've had 10 days since calling it and just 5 months since taking power. The Troika has been dealing with the sovereign debt crisis for 7 years and haven't come up with a practical solution.
    Following the referendum, the Greek government stated that it would "immediately" negotiate a deal, would have a deal in 24 hours, etc. Instead, it came to Brussels without a proposal. The new Finance Minister isn't to blame, but the government in general is. The Greek government knows full well that the ECB will not increase the ELA limit unless there is a credible proposal on the table (something that was made clear when Greece asked it to increase its support on Monday).

    Did the government have an idea what its strategy would be if it prevailed in the referendum? That lack of a ready proposal suggests that it didn't, even as the creditors had stated ahead of the referendum and again afterward, that they expected Greece to offer a new proposal.

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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Frodly View Post
    This problem is someone else's fault. There was no Eurozone debt crises until banks and financial institutions crashed the global economy and created one. Of the countries currently facing crises, only greece even had moderately high debt before the economic collapse (t was 107% of GDP). That is high, but not very dissimilar from many other countries whose economies are doing fine and have done fine in the past. In Spain, debt was 26% of GDP, which is very low, and the Spanish actually ran surpluses in the lead up to the collapse. Their crises is 100% created by outside institutions creating an economic collapse. Greece on the other hand had a larger role to play in their own downfall, but even so most of the blame lies at the feet of the financial institutions responsible for the collapse of the economy and the wealthy Eurozone countries that have imposed insane austerity measures on Greece. If those austerity measures hadn't been imposed, there is no way the Greek economy would have contracted by 25%. How can creditors expect a country to pay its debts, while imposing on that country measures, which lead to a 25% decrease in economic output. It is an impossible position Greece is in. It is bad economics. The only reason it is being done, is to protect the powerful (the creditors) and because there is a moral crusade under way to punish the Greeks for their failures, despite the fact that many of their problems are not of their own making.
    No, the Greek problem existed long before the debt crisis. Also, the rest of the EU seemed to be able to weather the debt crisis OK.
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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    No, the Greek problem existed long before the debt crisis. Also, the rest of the EU seemed to be able to weather the debt crisis OK.
    Since 1829, the country has spent half its existence in default.

    But it's not an internal problem. :/

  10. #150
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    Re: Greece referendum: Early results show 'No' vote ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by Frodly View Post
    Of course considering the Democratic will of the Greek people would be cowardice in the mind of right wing sycophants for the powerful.
    What about the left wing sychophants that blame all of this on the Banks and the Creditors ?

    Those Che Guevara flag waving morons who blame " austerity " when no one in their right minds would lend Greece a dime ?

    They're the one's who've turned this into a cluster.

    The Greek banks are giving out a maximum of 60 Euros a day and are forbidding any wire transfers out of Greece.

    You know where they're getting the money to do that ? They're taking it from people's safe deposit boxes.

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