Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 23

Thread: The Episcopal Church now allows Same-Sex Marriage in Church

  1. #11
    Sage
    Captain Adverse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Mid-West USA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    6,229

    Re: The Episcopal Church now allows Same-Sex Marriage in Church

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    God's church is not a democracy. God's Law is God's Law and not subject to human referendum.

    Gay marriage as a secular issue is fundamentally a different matter than it is to the church. While it may be ok for a government to allow gay marriage, a church doing so means it has lost its way.

    Then again, the Anglican Church has a rich history of bending the Bible to the needs of the state....
    Then again, an argument can be made that people like you bend the bible to the needs of personal prejudices and religious dogma. Quite frequently in fact.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  2. #12
    Sage
    Crovax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    South Texas
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:22 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    6,367

    Re: The Episcopal Church now allows Same-Sex Marriage in Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    The church will always conform to the world in the end. It always has, and it's demonstration that it's impotent and inferior to reality. It's a fantasy world, religion. But for the masses that can't accept the reality that you get about seventy years and then your gone, never to be heard of again and forgotten completely after a few generations, as though you never were, it provides a copping tool.
    Everyone is free to believe what they want but you cant deny God's word and still call yourself a Christian. Thus isn't some abstract theological debate over vague passages, its clear words straight from God to Moses

  3. #13
    Sage
    Montecresto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Last Seen
    03-13-16 @ 09:59 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    24,561

    Re: The Episcopal Church now allows Same-Sex Marriage in Church

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    God's church is not a democracy. God's Law is God's Law and not subject to human referendum.

    Gay marriage as a secular issue is fundamentally a different matter than it is to the church. While it may be ok for a government to allow gay marriage, a church doing so means it has lost its way.

    Then again, the Anglican Church has a rich history of bending the Bible to the needs of the state....
    The church lost its way when Constantine found the Church. The first several decades of the church post Jesus was composed exclusively of Jews. It wasn't until Peters vision, metaphorically with the sheet full of unclean animals, that the original disciples realized that the church was to be open to the Gentile as well, never mind that people ignore that fact and use the teaching in its literal to excuse the sin of eating unclean animals. For three hundred years, even though the original disciples learned that Gentiles were no longer to be considered unclean, the church observed the law. It wasn't till Constantine adopted the church, declared it the official of the state as well as decided to divorce it from its Jewishness by declaring anybody caught worshipping on the sabbath day from then on would be "anathema from Christ", that the Catholic Church was essentially born and the day of worship changed, by authority of Constantine, to Sunday. And the Catholic Church has since declared that the Protestant church's, born out of rebellion to the church, for all the Catholic Church doctrines that they abandoned, still demonstrate their acknowledgement of the authority of the Catholic Church by retaining the practice of Sunday observance in difference to the actual law of god to remember the seventh day (not the first day) and keep IT holy!! My point being, the Church lost its way a very, very long time ago. All that said, the LGBT community deserves the same respect and rights as all other citizens of the world.
    Last edited by Montecresto; 07-02-15 at 05:52 PM.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  4. #14
    Sage
    Captain Adverse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Mid-West USA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    6,229

    Re: The Episcopal Church now allows Same-Sex Marriage in Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    Everyone is free to believe what they want but you cant deny God's word and still call yourself a Christian. Thus isn't some abstract theological debate over vague passages, its clear words straight from God to Moses
    Perhaps you should consider that nothing stated runs contrary to the quotation you cited. Look at it again and point out how this instruction automatically requires a corollary interpretation that same-sex relations are absolutely and incontrovertibly prohibited. Can you?

    Not really, it is merely the INTERPRETATION you believe in. I am also Christian, and I do NOT interpret it in such a way. Nor do I presume on behalf of God to predict how He will determine either MY fate or YOURS because of this.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  5. #15
    Sage
    Montecresto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Last Seen
    03-13-16 @ 09:59 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    24,561

    Re: The Episcopal Church now allows Same-Sex Marriage in Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    Everyone is free to believe what they want but you cant deny God's word and still call yourself a Christian. Thus isn't some abstract theological debate over vague passages, its clear words straight from God to Moses
    Gods word inspired Job with the theory of a flat earth, with corners!!!!! The fact that the earth is spherical, and not the center of the universe was opposed by the church, even disfellowshipping those that might advocate it, but in the end conformed to reality. Just as they are on this, which will not end at the episcopalian church. That the so called "word of god" can be twisted as it is by hundreds of denominations to mean something different is the evidence that it means nothing at all. Deal with it. Btw, your avatar is disgusting, though I'm sure that's why it's up.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  6. #16
    Sage
    upsideguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Rocky Mtn. High
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:20 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    7,837

    Re: The Episcopal Church now allows Same-Sex Marriage in Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Then again, an argument can be made that people like you bend the bible to the needs of personal prejudices and religious dogma. Quite frequently in fact.
    I'm sure Henry VIII uttered similar nonsense. God's church is not a democracy and his Law is not negotiable.

    I'm not sure what "people like me" are and certainly you do not. I have a very complex and nuanced view of this that you likely would not begin to understand, which begins with the fact the Bible is unusually specific on this subject and though Biblical "arguments" can be made to contrary, they are just arguments that run contrary to the explicit.

    That all said, I am not in favor of gay weddings in churches; but I am not against gay marriage. The SCOTUS got it right; the Angelicans got it wrong.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 07-02-15 at 10:49 PM.

  7. #17
    Sage
    upsideguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Rocky Mtn. High
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:20 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    7,837

    Re: The Episcopal Church now allows Same-Sex Marriage in Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    The church lost its way when Constantine found the Church. The first several decades of the church post Jesus was composed exclusively of Jews. It wasn't until Peters vision, metaphorically with the sheet full of unclean animals, that the original disciples realized that the church was to be open to the Gentile as well, never mind that people ignore that fact and use the teaching in its literal to excuse the sin of eating unclean animals. For three hundred years, even though the original disciples learned that Gentiles were no longer to be considered unclean, the church observed the law. It wasn't till Constantine adopted the church, declared it the official of the state as well as decided to divorce it from its Jewishness by declaring anybody caught worshipping on the sabbath day from then on would be "anathema from Christ", that the Catholic Church was essentially born and the day of worship changed, by authority of Constantine, to Sunday. And the Catholic Church has since declared that the Protestant church's, born out of rebellion to the church, for all the Catholic Church doctrines that they abandoned, still demonstrate their acknowledgement of the authority of the Catholic Church by retaining the practice of Sunday observance in difference to the actual law of god to remember the seventh day (not the first day) and keep IT holy!! My point being, the Church lost its way a very, very long time ago. All that said, the LGBT community deserves the same respect and rights as all other citizens of the world.
    Though I could not go so far as to suggest the Church is lost, you are correct in that much of church doctrine was created. Most notewothy is the idea of the Trinity, which is a church doctrine established by the Council of Nicea and is NOT explicitly set forth in the Bible. It is doctrine based upon the Bible; rather than explictly set forth within.

    Though I do not profess to understand it, the concept of homosexuality as sin is pretty clear in the Bible; then again, so is the idea of re-marriage after divorce. That all said, all men sin and fall short of the glory of God. Man has sinned and will sin and one sin is not greater than another. Even calling homosexuality a sin does not mean that its a greater sin then being angry with your brother, being greedy or lusting for a woman with your heart. All of these are sins and none of these preclude salvation (nor the right to be married in a church).
    Last edited by upsideguy; 07-02-15 at 10:47 PM.

  8. #18
    Sage
    Captain Adverse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Mid-West USA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    6,229

    Re: The Episcopal Church now allows Same-Sex Marriage in Church

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    I'm sure Henry VIII uttered similar nonsense. God's church is not a democracy and his Law is not negotiable.

    I'm not sure what "people like me" are and certainly you do not.
    Are you Catholic? I'm only asking because your reference to King Henry VIII in this context seems to concern his being the first ruler of a major Christian kingdom to change the state religion from Catholic to Protestant.

    Still, if there were no doctrinal differences between the Catholic Church and the Protestant reformers there would not have been a schism, would there?

    Schism: a split or division between strongly opposed sections or parties, caused by differences in opinion or belief.

    Now I agree that God's commandments (what you refer to as "law") are non-negotiable. The problem appears to rest with interpreting what is, and is not, "God's Law."

    A prime example? God was absolutely clear, even going so far as to personally etch it in stone, that "Thou Shalt Not Kill." Yet nearly every Christian sect has found some Biblical interpretation to justify killing for one purpose or another.

    Now you have inserted yourself into a response to another member, and have self-identified as one of the people I referred to. Remember that; it was YOU who self-identified as one who might; and I quote myself:

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Then again, an argument can be made that people like you bend the bible to the needs of personal prejudices and religious dogma.
    That is not a judgment, merely an observation.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 07-02-15 at 11:08 PM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  9. #19
    Sage
    Montecresto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Last Seen
    03-13-16 @ 09:59 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    24,561

    Re: The Episcopal Church now allows Same-Sex Marriage in Church

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Though I could not go so far as to suggest the Church is lost, you are correct in that much of church doctrine was created. Most notewothy is the idea of the Trinity, which is a church doctrine established by the Council of Nicea and is NOT explicitly set forth in the Bible. It is doctrine based upon the Bible; rather than explictly set forth within.

    Though I do not profess to understand it, the concept of homosexuality as sin is pretty clear in the Bible; then again, so is the idea of re-marriage after divorce. That all said, all men sin and fall short of the glory of God. Man has sinned and will sin and one sin is not greater than another. Even calling homosexuality a sin does not mean that its a greater sin then being angry with your brother, being greedy or lusting for a woman with your heart. All of these are sins and none of these preclude salvation (nor the right to be married in a church).
    Well of course you wouldn't acknowledge that the church is lost, your foundation would become sand and faith would be moot. But there's no denying that the church today looks nothing like the church founded by Jesus. For one, all members of the church were Israelites exclusively. Gentiles considered unclean until Peter's vision of the unclean animals as illustrated earlier. In its context, upon hearing Peter's vision and discussing it amongst themselves, it was decided unanimously that god was revealing that the Gentile should no longer be considered unclean, and accepted into the church upon repentance. They then all agreed that Paul would become the "apostle to the Gentile" and he began traveling outside Judaea to carry the good news (gospel) to the Gentiles. None of them believed that it was suddenly ok for them to eat a pig. The law was paramount, the seventh day was the sabbath and when given the perfect opportunity to teach men that salvation and eternal life by belief in and acceptance of himself, Jesus pointed out that if one sought to enter into eternal life, he must keep the commandments. even if one believes the silliness that Jesus had a physical birth without a physical father, no one denies that he was born of a woman. And he declared that "born of a woman, there is none greater than John the Baptist". He also refused to be called "good" stating that there was none good only the father in heaven. He certainly didn't adhere to the trinity, nor his own superiority. The church that lost its way long ago deified "the son of man" his words!!!!!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  10. #20
    Sage
    upsideguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Rocky Mtn. High
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:20 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    7,837

    Re: The Episcopal Church now allows Same-Sex Marriage in Church

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Are you Catholic? I'm only asking because your reference to King Henry VIII in this context seems to concern his being the first ruler of a major Christian kingdom to change the state religion from Catholic to Protestant.

    Still, if there were no doctrinal differences between the Catholic Church and the Protestant reformers there would not have been a schism, would there?

    Schism: a split or division between strongly opposed sections or parties, caused by differences in opinion or belief.

    Now I agree that God's commandments (what you refer to as "law") are non-negotiable. The problem appears to rest with interpreting what is, and is not, "God's Law."

    A prime example? God was absolutely clear, even going so far as to personally etch it in stone, that "Thou Shalt Not Kill." Yet nearly every Christian sect has found some Biblical interpretation to justify killing for one purpose or another.

    Now you have inserted yourself into a response to another member, and have self-identified as one of the people I referred to. Remember that; it was YOU who self-identified as one who might; and I quote myself:



    That is not a judgment, merely an observation.
    No, I am not Catholic; I am an Evangelical. So, in your quest to want to put people in buckets, chomp on a Liberal that is an Evangelical Christian and then tell me what I think....

    If not clear, the history of the Episcopal Church (the American version of the Anglican Church, aka Church of England) includes a questionable, if not out of wedlock (metaphorically speaking) birth. Henry, it seems, did not like the Church telling him he could not divorce. He also did not like another person, the Pope, having any power over him.... in essence, he did not like God's law, so he did the ultimate in bending the Bible, he started his own church.

    http://www.religionfacts.com/anglicanism/history

    Now, I noticed you chose not to capitalize Bible (which even for those that do not think it holy, its still the name of a book) AND you thought when I spoke of God's Law that I was specifically referring to the Ten Commandments. I was not. This tells me you are not particularly knowledgeable about the Bible. If that is the case, and I believe it is, you have no credibility in telling me that I am bending the Word for my purpose. Moreover, if you were knowledgeable about the Bible, you would at least know my basis for my claim that God's views of homosexual behavior are quite clear. If you actually knew the Bible, your response to me would have been more in line with the rebuttals offered by the Gay community (which are good biblical arguments). No, instead you use you ignorance to try to call me ignorant. Nice try, but I see the whole in your logic. If you would like some verses, I am happy to furnish them.

    Now, if you honestly knew me and/or thought about my dilemma as a Evangelical Liberal you would realize that I have done quite the opposite of bending my Bible to my needs.... I am liberal: I am for gay right's, for heaven sake. But, above that, I am a Christian and I believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God (the Word). OK, there is the bending.... I don't believe in legislating morality nor asserting my morality on the secular....that is the reconciliation of my Evangelical Christian beliefs with my liberal politics (happy to elaborate)...

    Frankly, this is an issue that perplexes me. I do not understand the concept of homosexuality in God's plan, at all. But, I defer to my God who understands these things that I do not. Unfortunately, the Bible seems abundantly clear on this subject, clearer than with many others (like abortion, for example) so I continue pray about this. BTW.... the Bible is also quite clear that marriage after divorce * is considered adultery, making 2nd marriages a very similar sin on God's eyes. Churches, true to the Word, should welcome neither.

    That all said, gay marriage should be the law of the land; but really has no place in the house of God. Moral law is always a higher bar than civil law.

    Now, we can certainly have a Biblical discussion on this subject and you can tell me what I am twisting to my ends; but it seems pretty clear this all about your lack of understanding, not mine.

    BTW... the correct interpretation is "...thou shalt not MURDER"

    http://biblehub.com/exodus/20-13.htm
    http://www.biblestudy.org/question/w...kill-mean.html
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_kill
    Last edited by upsideguy; 07-04-15 at 11:03 PM.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •