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Thread: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

  1. #291
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    Re: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is incorrect. The Old Testament does not have a word for Abortion, but it does have a word for Miscarry. There is no instance of someone willfully miscarrying their own child, in the OT, and so nothing is listed for or against it. The closest we have is that the OT states that if a man harms a pregnant woman so as to cause a premature birth, and lasting harm (the death of the child or the death of the woman) comes from it, he would pay for that with his life.

    Throughout the Old Testament the text continually affirms that our life begins in the womb, that we have souls in the womb, and the New Testament states that we can even be touched by the Holy Spirit in the womb.

    So you could say that that form of partial-birth abortion is considered a sin (a capital one) in the Old Testament, and you can say that there may be room for ambiguity about willful miscarriage in the OT, but you definitely cannot say that "The Old Testament clearly does not see abortion as murder".
    Actually it says he should pay with money if the fetus dies. He will pay with his life if the woman dies.

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    Re: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Actually it says he should pay with money if the fetus dies. He will pay with his life if the woman dies.
    On the contrary - he pays with money for a premature birth of a baby (live), and then pays with his life if there is any permanent harm to the woman or the child.
    Worth noting, Democrats: President Trump will have a Pen and a Phone. #Precedent.

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    Re: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    On the contrary - he pays with money for a premature birth of a baby (live), and then pays with his life if there is any permanent harm to the woman or the child.
    And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no [further] injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him

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    Re: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Yeah - NRSV screwed that one up. The term "yatsa" doesn't mean "to lose her offspring" it means "to go out, to go forth". It certainly doesn't mean a dead child, it is simply meant to refer to the process going out, to include the process of childbirth - it is used, for example, to describe the live births of Esau and Jacob (Genesis 25:25-26). It is used 1,061 times in the Hebrew texts and is never used to mean miscarriage. The idea that it suddenly becomes "miscarriage" in this one verse and no where else is unlikely.

    The word for "stillborn child" is "nephel" (Job 3:16, Eccl. 6:3-4, Psalms 58:8). The word for abortion or to cause miscarriage, is "shachol" (Genesis 31:38, Job 21:10, etc.) and is used by the author to mean miscarriage when he discusses miscarriage two chapters later (Exodus 23:26). The Hebrew word used here is a noun form of a verb (yeled) that means "child" or "child brought forth" or "little child" and is used to refer to live births in the Old Testament (ex: Gen 21:8, Exodus 2:3, Ruth 4:16, Isaiah 9:6), including earlier in the exact same chapter (Exodus 21:4).


    The early Church Fathers were similarly clear.
    Last edited by cpwill; 07-11-15 at 12:23 AM.
    Worth noting, Democrats: President Trump will have a Pen and a Phone. #Precedent.

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    Re: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Yeah - NRSV screwed that one up. The term "yatsa" doesn't mean "to lose her offspring" it means "to go out, to go forth". It certainly doesn't mean a dead child, it is simply meant to refer to the process going out, to include the process of childbirth - it is used, for example, to describe the live births of Esau and Jacob (Genesis 25:25-26). It is used 1,061 times in the Hebrew texts and is never used to mean miscarriage, except, apparently, only in this one verse.

    The word for "stillborn child" is "nephel" (Job 3:16, Eccl. 6:3-4, Psalms 58:8). The word for abortion or to cause miscarriage, is "shachol" (Genesis 31:38, Job 21:10, etc.) and is used by the author to mean miscarriage when he discusses miscarriage two chapters later (Exodus 23:26). The Hebrew word used here is a noun form of a verb (yeled) that means "child" or "child brought forth" or "little child" and is used to refer to live births in the Old Testament (ex: Gen 21:8, Exodus 2:3, Ruth 4:16, Isaiah 9:6), including in the exact same chapter (Exodus 21:4).


    The early Church Fathers were similarly clear.
    That website reminds me of geocities, LMAO

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    Re: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    They did. During the Inquisition they (Catholics I believe) had no problem killing to serve their own purposes.

    Today, many Christians support the death penalty....as well as certain sects.
    We arent talking about killing as a judicial punishment but murder for the sake of murder because s9meone thinks its not against the Bible

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    Re: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    and perhaps you put that first whereas other christian sects put love thy neighbor first. you aint god of christianity, so some sects can be all anti-gay and others will br pro-love and within the christian architecture all can exist.
    What exactly is "pro-love"

    You act as if there are only two positions hating gays and solemnizing gay marrige. You can still recognize that gays have the right to be together while acknowledging that the Bible defines marriage between a man and a woman.

    That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh. -Genesis 2:24

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    Re: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    I don't follow the Bible of your religion.

    Yet I am still an American citizen.

    I should not be subject only to what your God's laws are.
    We are talking about marriage solely within the context of Christianity here so Im not sure what point you are getting at.

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    Re: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No. I'm pointing out the inconsistencies. You have still failed to point out where there is any agreement on what is or is not a violation of "thou shalt not kill/murder". Heck, the various Bible translations can't even get into agreement on what it should say, kill or murder.
    No you are trying to make the Christian definition of murder ambiguous by using disparities on how secular govts define murder.

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    Re: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    What exactly is "pro-love"

    You act as if there are only two positions hating gays and solemnizing gay marrige. You can still recognize that gays have the right to be together while acknowledging that the Bible defines marriage between a man and a woman.

    That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh. -Genesis 2:24
    Oh what ever. I find your Avatar really insulting. And I'm speaking as a 5th generation Texan. Also did you know one of largest gay Christian Churches in the world is located right here in Texas. So while you are welcome to your view you are not welcome to enforce it on anybody.

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