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Thread: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

  1. #261
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    Re: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    Would that be the White Anglo-Saxon straight men and women? Since we're accused of pretty much all the ills of society...
    .


    I'm going to let you figure that out for yourself.

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    Re: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    If a sect of Christians decided that the commandment "thou shall not kill" wasnt really a commandment and strated murdering people would you argue that they are still Christians who just have a different view on the Bible?
    They did. During the Inquisition they (Catholics I believe) had no problem killing to serve their own purposes.

    Today, many Christians support the death penalty....as well as certain sects.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    Easier to list the ones that support SSM.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessi...e-sex_marriage

    The Episcopalian Church also supports abortion rights.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ...iscopal_Church

    See a pattern here?

    That Episcopalians love their fellow man/woman more and leave the judging up to God?
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  4. #264
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    Re: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Affecting society is not the same as harming society. While there are benefits given to couples for getting married, there are also benefits to society for them being married. Government economics just isn't as simple as if you give someone a tax break here, then that means they are costing the government money. There are other benefits that come to government from giving that tax benefit or exemption. There are also other places within our laws that would become so complicated that removing government from marriage would likely cause so many negative consequences on our society and economy that it would counter any benefits that any couple gets from marriage.
    I did not say that there wasn't benefits. There are costs and there are benefits to society. Frankly I have not seen a good economic study comparing the costs, to government/society of reduced estate and inheritance tax income, reduced (perhaps) IRS tax income, and other costs with the benefits perhaps of more social stability, perhaps better health, intact family structure.

    This seems to be grounds for discussion that should not be dismissed with some self-righteous "hater" label.
    I would agree that there would be unintended consequences of ending the government special rights for married couples and, even though I would prefer to see government out of the married business and ending these benefits, I would accept marriage benefits extended to all, in the name of equal rights. Polygyny, polyandry, sibling/blood relatives, and others should be allowed to marry.

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    Re: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric7216 View Post
    I did not say that there wasn't benefits. There are costs and there are benefits to society. Frankly I have not seen a good economic study comparing the costs, to government/society of reduced estate and inheritance tax income, reduced (perhaps) IRS tax income, and other costs with the benefits perhaps of more social stability, perhaps better health, intact family structure.

    This seems to be grounds for discussion that should not be dismissed with some self-righteous "hater" label.
    I would agree that there would be unintended consequences of ending the government special rights for married couples and, even though I would like to see government out of the married business and ending these benefits, I would like to see marriage benefits extended to all, in the name of equal rights. Polygyny, polyandry, sibling/blood relatives, and others should be allowed to marry.
    I don't think it should be "extended to all". I believe that we should be extending some to many benefits (particularly protections and some spousal rights to those who want/have multiple spouses), but that it would be wrong to completely change marriage now to accommodate those groups. It would be a huge change (likely negative) for a large group of people just to accommodate a very small group. Siblings/blood relatives I have mixed feelings on. First cousins and further out should be allowed to marry. There should be some exceptions made for siblings who met as adults (with genetic counseling included). But the others have many of the benefits of spouses due to their current legal kinship status.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    any pastor that allows that stuff to go on in his church i would question him as well. more so if he knows about it and says nothing to his congregation. you seem to only pick and choose what you want. God's word is what it says it is.
    The fact is you still haven't provided any argument and neither will this church organization of how they can equate the two of them.
    The Bible was written by men, influenced by their current culture & superstitions and without being able to take into account many things we know today. It's obvious even today men are freaked out by homosexuality. Easy enough to stuff those prejudices into the Bible and claim it as God's Word.

    I go by the overall message of God and Jesus: peace, love, forgiveness, and treating your fellow man as you would yourself.

    Do you believe God created the Earth in 6 days?
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  7. #267
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    Re: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    Abortion is not a word used in the Bible or other ancient text.

    However, it expressly condemns the killing of the innocent. in both Testaments.

    Does the Bible prohibit abortion? Abortion in the Bible and Church history
    The unborn isnt 'innocent.' That is an attribute of something that can form intent or act.

    Unless you think that flowers and trees are 'innocent?' Hey, if you want to value some 'innocence of emptiness', that's up to you. Better not pick any flowers then tho.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I don't think it should be "extended to all". I believe that we should be extending some to many benefits (particularly protections and some spousal rights to those who want/have multiple spouses), but that it would be wrong to completely change marriage now to accommodate those groups. It would be a huge change (likely negative) for a large group of people just to accommodate a very small group. Siblings/blood relatives I have mixed feelings on. First cousins and further out should be allowed to marry. There should be some exceptions made for siblings who met as adults (with genetic counseling included). But the others have many of the benefits of spouses due to their current legal kinship status.
    I have been going back and forth with several on this so maybe I forgot what we covered. At one point I made the comment that it seems odd that government is essentially involved in what is basically a religious belief that sex is so special that it should be restricted to long term committed relationships and to assist this, we give government benefits. That was rejected as there is no requirement of sex or procreation in marriage. OK. So the government/social benefit of marriage comes from the social support of two or more people which results in better health, stable families, etc. Two elderly siblings can have this and can benefit from this. They don't need to be sexual relationships. A single parent with his/her single parent (say a daughter, with a child, and her mother) can benefit from this. An uncle with a favorite niece or nephew can benefit. And all these type families help society in the same way as a gay couple. I would be very curious as to the numbers involved. My gut feeling, as almost 50% of adults are currently single, is that there are a lot more of these type family units than there are SS couples who want to get married.

  9. #269
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    Re: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric7216 View Post
    I have been going back and forth with several on this so maybe I forgot what we covered. At one point I made the comment that it seems odd that government is essentially involved in what is basically a religious belief that sex is so special that it should be restricted to long term committed relationships and to assist this, we give government benefits. That was rejected as there is no requirement of sex or procreation in marriage. OK. So the government/social benefit of marriage comes from the social support of two or more people which results in better health, stable families, etc. Two elderly siblings can have this and can benefit from this. They don't need to be sexual relationships. A single parent with his/her single parent (say a daughter, with a child, and her mother) can benefit from this. An uncle with a favorite niece or nephew can benefit. And all these type families help society in the same way as a gay couple. I would be very curious as to the numbers involved. My gut feeling, as almost 50% of adults are currently single, is that there are a lot more of these type family units than there are SS couples who want to get married.
    You can't show that any of those mentioned couples help society in the same ways that either opposite sex or same sex spouses, in an intimate relationship, who have gone into the marriage at least expecting it to be longterm, help society.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  10. #270
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    Re: Episcopalians Vote to Allow Gay Marriage in Churches

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Doesn't condemn the killing of children though.............
    Says who?
    32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
    Matt. 10:32-33

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