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Thread: Polygamous Montana Trio Applies For Wedding License

  1. #131
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    Re: Polygamous Montana Trio Applies For Wedding License

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Here's something else to consider, two women in the house don't always get along. It takes a very special set of rules and attitudes of acceptance to make it work. But outside of that, the legality is up to society which appears to be in a mood to accept it.
    The legality should not be "up to society". Thats like saying the legality of Slavery should be "Up to society".

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    Re: Polygamous Montana Trio Applies For Wedding License

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Looks like your hunting around for an excuse to prohibit polygamy. I don't think the Left has a leg to stand on anymore.
    I'm not searching very hard. Others on this thread have noted the impact on immigration law as another State interest.

    Those are some very legitimate state interests and a ban on polygamous marriage is a narrowly defined method to achieve that goal.

    And while Obergefell did not reference legitimate State interests in their case, I believe the primary reason is that those arguments were so soundly defeated in the cases leading up to that decision (and specifically in the DOMA case) that the opponents of gay marriage pretty much exclusively pursued a "State's rights to decide" type of argument and thus, the majority opinion did not address (but simultaneously did not reject) the notion that a legitimate State interest can defeat a constitutional right claim as long as that interest is pursued in a narrowly tailored fashion.

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    Re: Polygamous Montana Trio Applies For Wedding License

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    The legality should not be "up to society". Thats like saying the legality of Slavery should be "Up to society".
    Okay I misspoke.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Polygamous Montana Trio Applies For Wedding License

    Quote Originally Posted by MrT View Post
    I'm not searching very hard. Others on this thread have noted the impact on immigration law as another State interest.

    Those are some very legitimate state interests and a ban on polygamous marriage is a narrowly defined method to achieve that goal.

    And while Obergefell did not reference legitimate State interests in their case, I believe the primary reason is that those arguments were so soundly defeated in the cases leading up to that decision (and specifically in the DOMA case) that the opponents of gay marriage pretty much exclusively pursued a "State's rights to decide" type of argument and thus, the majority opinion did not address (but simultaneously did not reject) the notion that a legitimate State interest can defeat a constitutional right claim as long as that interest is pursued in a narrowly tailored fashion.
    Not allowing polygamy is bigotry, especially from the gay crowd that can also add hypocrisy to that.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country spoke, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Polygamous Montana Trio Applies For Wedding License

    Quote Originally Posted by MrT View Post
    I would suggest reading the opinion from Brown v. Buhman, it's a district court case which struct down the cohabitation aspect of Utah's polygamy law, but upehld the general ban on the grounds of State's interests. Essentially, the argument goes that the State provides societal benefits to married couples because those couples provide societal benefits to the State. If polygamy is allowed, then the probability of tax fraud (e.g. people will declare themselves married, but not actually be connected to each other in any meaningful way) goes up. The same types of arguments can be applied to inheritance laws as well.
    And I am saying that despite their ruling, welfare benefits from the state is not a legitimate reason to limit the rights and freedoms of the people.

    Ones right should not be subject to the convenience of the government.

    And, considering that Bigamy laws were around BEFORE all of these welfare programs.... that argument shouldn't hold water anyways.

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    Re: Polygamous Montana Trio Applies For Wedding License

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Not allowing polygamy is bigotry, especially from the gay crowd that can also add hypocrisy to that.
    What is not allowing polygamy bigotry against? You realizing having multiple wives is not a sexual orientation that you are born with.

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    Re: Polygamous Montana Trio Applies For Wedding License

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    A wild free for all 'self identify your marriage' environment. OK.

    Now. The hard part. What about the financial impact to the state and the electorate of being married or not being married? What of the financial difference to the state? (mind you I'm just asking questions, I don't know specifically).
    It doesn't matter.....

    What is convenient or cheap for the government should not be a factor in considering what rights and liberties are permitted the people.

    Also, the fact that Bigamy laws were in place long before the welfare state we live in today, shows that this was not the reason for creating Bigamy laws in the first place, and thus they should be struck down.

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    Re: Polygamous Montana Trio Applies For Wedding License

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Actually it's not - which wife? The interpretation of one man and one woman was created by the Romans as I already stated after Christ's crucifixion.
    Um, it states "wife", not, "wives". C'mon man.

    Here's something from the OT.

    17 And he shall not acquire many wives for himself, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold.

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    Re: Polygamous Montana Trio Applies For Wedding License

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    What is not allowing polygamy bigotry against? You realizing having multiple wives is not a sexual orientation that you are born with.
    I don't give a **** if it's sexual orientation or not, it's a marriage choice. And now that we're redefining marriage, what the hell. Chaff with the wheat, baby, chaff with the wheat.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country spoke, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Polygamous Montana Trio Applies For Wedding License

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    And I am saying that despite their ruling, welfare benefits from the state is not a legitimate reason to limit the rights and freedoms of the people.

    Ones right should not be subject to the convenience of the government.

    And, considering that Bigamy laws were around BEFORE all of these welfare programs.... that argument shouldn't hold water anyways.
    Yes, benefits supplied from the State are a legitimate reason to limit the rights and freedoms of the people. If, for example, the state provides you with paved roads or water treatment and, in exchange, requires you to pay taxes and the state makes it illegal for you to damage those structures (even when built on your own personal property), then the State has a legitimate interest from supplying their welfare benefits and they can, in exchange, limit your rights and freedoms.

    That is a fairly basic concept that is longstanding. And absolutely, your rights should be subject to the interests of the State. That is the entire point of having a Government force - we all give up some forms of freedom to the State in exchange for societal benefits. Drawing the line is the only issue remaining and it is incumbent on the State to prove that (in the scenario where we are dealing with a fundamental right) they have a compelling government interest and that their laws are narrowly tailored in order to accomplish/protect that interest.

    The timing of when the polygamy laws came into effect and when the various welfare programs which would be impacted by repeal of those polygamy laws seems irrelevant.

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