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Thread: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

  1. #61
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    Re: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Recklessly endangering another is doing something wrong. And given the risk that the diseases we vaccinate against pose to children in a crowded environment like school, not vaccinating recklessly endangers innocent people. Yes, it's very very important to protect a person's bodily sovereignty. But it's also important not to let innocent kids get sick and die.

    It's a balance of hardships. The hardship of a little injection is minimal. Obviously, if the kid has a serious risk of harmful side effects, then they should be exempted. It's about trying to minimize harm. And the difference between active or passive... that doesn't matter.
    Again, I have no problem with a law that concerns public school systems. But this law prohibits parent's from establishing a private school, requiring instead "home schooling." That causes all sorts of problems for those kids and their families, on behalf of the very small minority of children with immune deficiencies.

    That makes this law punitive rather than beneficial. "Do this or be exiled!" No, just like religious groups may set up private schools, those parent who disagree with vaccination should be able to do so as well.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

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    Re: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    People undergoing Chemo know this. No vaccine for the cold, but for others there are. So the point is what?
    Vaccinations do NOT begin to cover every possible communicable diseases or even a broad swath of diseases, just a narrow select few and the vaccinations are imperfect. Therefor requiring vaccination of everyone is rather pointless. My children don't get all the vaccinations in the times, doses, and amounts required now. I spread them out, and get select vaccinations for the worst diseases like polio and make sure my children's immune system is capable handling the shots and only one disease at a time. I take a measured considered approach to vaccination. I haven't gotten my children vaccinated for measles or chicken pox. There is isn't much need to as they are minor inconvenient diseases that don't really affect us any more other than be miserable in the modern setting. What might have been lethal isn't anymore. I have been vaccinated and have them fail and have had adverse effects from them notable the chicken pox vaccination failed when I was an young adult, and I had a adverse reaction to Anthrax vaccination and I never got the full regimen or I would be worse off now has it resulted in auto immune disorder in my case psoriasis mainly and Rheumatoid arthritis, both minor. I am 42. I shouldn't have arthritis. What I am saying is one size does not fit all, especially in healthcare. Vaccinations are risk vs. reward and each parent should be able to evaluate for themselves the risk and reward. Vaccinations are not something to be taken lightly. They are tools inherently dangerous, and like any tool should be handled with care and consideration.
    Last edited by PirateMk1; 07-05-15 at 02:21 PM. Reason: improper phasology
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    Re: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    There were only a handful because we vaccinate everyone. And the hardship from catching a cold is minimal. Why are you only capable of going to extremes and not dealing with reality? And why do you not understand that different things are addressed differently. Reality doesn't deal in blanket rules.
    Because you people never stop at the reasonable. Why would I stop at the reasonable when I can't be assured you will stop there? Hell, I don't even think this is reasonable, so really, we are already past that point. If everyone vaccinates their kid then I don't understand how you even begin to justify force in this situation at all. We also have advanced medicine here in the US that lowers the probability of serious compilations from the measles by a substantial amount making your case for force here even weaker.

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    Re: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    "Gov. Jerry Brown on Tuesday signed a hotly contested California bill to impose one of the strictest school vaccination laws in the country in the wake of an outbreak of measles at Disneyland late last year.

    California now joins West Virginia and Mississippi as the only states without a personal-belief exemption for vaccines. Medical exemptions will still be available for children with serious health issues. When considering exemptions, doctors may take family medical history into account.

    Effective the 2016-17 school year, children whose parents refuse vaccination and are not granted a medical exemption must be homeschooled. School-age children who currently claim a personal-belief exemption will need to get fully vaccinated by kindergarten and seventh grade, the state's two vaccine checkpoints. The law applies to both public and private schools, as well as daycare centers."

    What's next for California's contentious vaccine law

    So, in order to attend either public or private school in California, all children who don't have a specific medical exemption must now be fully vaccinated against all childhood disease.

    On the surface this seems to be a reasonable public safety measure designed to "protect the children." However, IMO it just one more step down the road of Nanny-State policies designed to violate individual liberty in the name of public security.

    My argument isn't that vaccinations are inherently bad, although as with any pharmaceutical product there is ALWAYS a risk of allergic reaction in a section of the population; nor do I buy into the position that vaccinations cause Autism.

    My argument is about the erosion of the right to be secure in one's physical person from seizure and invasion. A person's physical body is their evidence of existential individuality; the basis from which all claims of individual liberty and inherent rights flow. Forcible invasion of a person's body for ANY reason is a direct assault on their liberty. History demonstrates that once you give a government that kind of power over the individual, it is a slippery slope leading to all sorts of horrors. (See Compulsory Sterilization, Nazi experimentation, etc.)

    It is one thing to lock someone up for a violent act for a period of incarceration, but quite another to require individuals to submit to blood tests, DNA extraction, or the forcible injection of substances into the body because other people think it will make THEM safer.

    In this case, voluntary vaccination serves to protect you and your children from infection. Compelling someone else to do so? I don't think your concerns trump their rights to choose not to.
    Meh, we were never at risk for any sort of outbreak. Even CO, which has the lowest percentage of immunized children, isn't breaking out into a bunch of dead kids. It's an overreaction.
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    Re: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Again, I have no problem with a law that concerns public school systems. But this law prohibits parent's from establishing a private school, requiring instead "home schooling." That causes all sorts of problems for those kids and their families, on behalf of the very small minority of children with immune deficiencies.

    That makes this law punitive rather than beneficial. "Do this or be exiled!" No, just like religious groups may set up private schools, those parent who disagree with vaccination should be able to do so as well.
    It's just as dangerous in a private school. Why should the kids there be put in danger? Obviously, we don't have different laws against reckless endangerment for public and private property. Someone negligently swinging a hammer or spraying chemicals doesn't have a different level of responsibility if they're on a public road or a private lawn.

    No one is exiling anyone. We just want to protect kids from deadly diseases. I understand that the loss of liberty bothers you. It bothers me, too. But I don't see an alternative that doesn't put innocent kids in danger.

    Honestly, you could make the case that any parent not vaccinating their kids without a serious medical reason is child abuse. They're being harmed for absolutely no gain, save the paranoid ramblings of conspiracy theorists.

    Ultimately, if you want to see this law changed, it needs a technological solution, not a legal one. We need a better method to fight these diseases, and no one will need to be injected with anything.
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    Re: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    It's just as dangerous in a private school. Why should the kids there be put in danger? Obviously, we don't have different laws against reckless endangerment for public and private property. Someone negligently swinging a hammer or spraying chemicals doesn't have a different level of responsibility if they're on a public road or a private lawn.

    No one is exiling anyone. We just want to protect kids from deadly diseases. I understand that the loss of liberty bothers you. It bothers me, too. But I don't see an alternative that doesn't put innocent kids in danger.

    Honestly, you could make the case that any parent not vaccinating their kids without a serious medical reason is child abuse. They're being harmed for absolutely no gain, save the paranoid ramblings of conspiracy theorists.

    Ultimately, if you want to see this law changed, it needs a technological solution, not a legal one. We need a better method to fight these diseases, and no one will need to be injected with anything.
    What if me and my neighbors decided to home school our kids together and half of the kids aren't vaccinated? Don't the other half deserve protection?

    And not getting your kids a shot when they are healthy is not child abuse. Jesus.
    Last edited by Henrin; 07-05-15 at 02:44 PM.

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    Re: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    No subsidy. Subsidizing morons is not a good strategy.
    So you oppose welfare? Interesting.

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    Re: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

    Quote Originally Posted by pilot16 View Post
    But again, that's great until they are 18, then what? What happens when they go to work with others who have infants? Have cancer? Or are immune compromised?
    What about college? Don't college kids deserve protection too? You know, I was seventeen when I started college, so I guess I have to ask why minors in college aren't protected. Seems only right.

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    Re: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    Vaccinations do NOT begin to cover every possible communicable diseases or even a broad swath of diseases, just a narrow select few and the vaccinations are imperfect. Therefor requiring vaccination of everyone is rather pointless. My children don't get all the vaccinations in the times, doses, and amounts required now. I spread them out, and get select vaccinations for the worst diseases like polio and make sure my children's immune system is capable handling the shots and only one disease at a time. I take a measured considered approach to vaccination. I haven't gotten my children vaccinated for measles or chicken pox. There is isn't much need to as they are minor inconvenient diseases that don't really affect us any more other than be miserable in the modern setting. What might have been lethal isn't anymore. I have been vaccinated and have them fail and have had adverse effects from them notable the chicken pox vaccination failed when I was an young adult, and I had a adverse reaction to Anthrax vaccination and I never got the full regimen or I would be worse off now has it resulted in auto immune disorder in my case psoriasis mainly and Rheumatoid arthritis, both minor. I am 42. I shouldn't have arthritis. What I am saying is one size does not fit all, especially in healthcare. Vaccinations are risk vs. reward and each parent should be able to evaluate for themselves the risk and reward. Vaccinations are not something to be taken lightly. They are tools inherently dangerous, and like any tool should be handled with care and consideration.
    Spread them out, is fine, I think the same way. But vaccinate.
    Measles not as minor as you think
    Measles | Complications | CDC

    Tetanus is another.
    Tetanus Symptoms - Mayo Clinic
    Hep A & B.

    Chickenpox is not as harmless either.
    Chickenpox*Possible Complications - Chickenpox Health Information - NY Times Health
    Adults have the greatest risk for dying from chickenpox, with infants having the next highest risk. Males (both boys and men) have a higher risk for a severe case of chickenpox than females. Children who catch chickenpox from family members are likely to have a more severe case than if they caught it outside the home. The older the child, the higher the risk for a more severe case. But even in such circumstances, chickenpox is rarely serious in children. Other factors put individuals at specifically higher risk for complications of chickenpox.
    Recurrence of Chickenpox and Reactivation as Shingles
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    Re: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    Spread them out, is fine, I think the same way. But vaccinate.
    Measles not as minor as you think
    Measles | Complications | CDC

    Tetanus is another.
    Tetanus Symptoms - Mayo Clinic
    Hep A & B.

    Chickenpox is not as harmless either.
    Chickenpox*Possible Complications - Chickenpox Health Information - NY Times Health
    The risks of the vaccinations for measles and chickenpox out weigh the potential good IMO. Not to mention failure to protect rates are not good either. Remember I got the chicken pox even though I was vaccinated with the full prescribed regimen of the time. They are not absolutely necessary unlike polio or whooping cough which are dangerous even with modern medicine. I am playing the odds and the odds now favor me not to vaccinate against those particular diseases in favor of more virulent and potentially deadly diseases such as TB, Whooping Cough, Polio, Hepatitis ect. There are time span verses recovery from the vaccine factors that few realize and that sufficient time for recovery and more importantly preparation for vaccination immunity build up so as to minimize problems with vaccines. Not all vaccines work or are made the same or have the same potency. They are NOT as I said before one size fits all and have to be adjusted accordingly to the individual. There are lots of vaccines and many that combine multiple diseases. A body should be at maximum health before taking a vaccination especially a multiple type vaccination. That said these are medical decisions that should be left to the parents. There is a very good case for NOT vaccinating your child, especially for things like the measles or chicken pox. Vaccines are good, however mandating them by government coercion is not.
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