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Thread: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

  1. #21
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    Re: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Two problems. Yes, they typically do, but from what I understand in CA there have been pockets of anti-vaxers who have created regions where herd immunity isn't working. And that exposes those who would vaccinate but cannot for health reasons (i.e. the most vulnerable in the population) to diseases they would otherwise avoid.

    The other problem IMO is you're making a defense of freeloading in that the anti-vaxxers are enjoying the herd immunity that others who take the small risk of vaccines provide them and the rest of their community. IMO, those parents electing not to vaccinate are just being typically selfish, self entitled Americans, nothing more. They're riding the backs of 100s of millions who have gotten vaccinated and decided not to do their part. I don't think they're entitled to make that choice AND, if the anti-vaxxers are in great enough numbers, cause a risk of a real health crisis in the public schools.
    I guess my arguments are based on my firm belief as an individual that the typical nanny-state ideology of "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one" should be applied as sparingly as possible, because as a "one" I don't want to be interfered with unless I am actually causing a direct harm to "the many."
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

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    Re: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    I guess my arguments are based on my firm belief as an individual that the typical nanny-state ideology of "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one" should be applied as sparingly as possible, because as a "one" I don't want to be interfered with unless I am actually causing a direct harm to "the many."
    OK, and I understand the issue is which side of a very gray line we fall down on. But the difference between our arguments is whether the harm is "direct" which is your standard, or very real but indirect.

    Do you think the anti-vaxxers would get vaccines if they were told they had to move to a population with no herd immunity at all, where all those diseases we've all but eradicated were present in large numbers and very likely to infect their children?

    My guess is nearly 100% would get the vaccines, because the risk of disease is so far greater than risk of vaccinations. And for every one who would, they're just entitled freeloaders in my view who want others to take the small risks and but still enjoy the public health benefits of the efforts of others. Frankly, if they can get away with it, it's an excellent strategy because they get the best of both worlds - herd immunity from living in a first world country without exposing their children to ANY risk of vaccines. Fine but they don't get a public education.

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    Re: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    OK, and I understand the issue is which side of a very gray line we fall down on. But the difference between our arguments is whether the harm is "direct" which is your standard, or very real but indirect.

    Do you think the anti-vaxxers would get vaccines if they were told they had to move to a population with no herd immunity at all, where all those diseases we've all but eradicated were present in large numbers and very likely to infect their children?

    My guess is nearly 100% would get the vaccines, because the risk of disease is so far greater than risk of vaccinations. And for every one who would, they're just entitled freeloaders in my view who want others to take the small risks and but still enjoy the public health benefits of the efforts of others. Frankly, if they can get away with it, it's an excellent strategy because they get the best of both worlds - herd immunity from living in a first world country without exposing their children to ANY risk of vaccines. Fine but they don't get a public education.
    Well, if you look at the article it seems to indicate that the pockets of population in California with the lowest vaccination rates causing the offset of herd immunity are located exactly where the objectors currently reside. In effect, they currently live in the areas of most "threat" and have made the conscious decision to do so.

    It follows that your guess about them rushing to get vaccinations would be incorrect, or would I be wrong?
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

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    Re: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

    Yet the measles issue came from someone overseas visiting Disneyland that started it all.

    Disney Measles Outbreak Came From Overseas, CDC Says - NBC News

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    Re: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Well, if you look at the article it seems to indicate that the pockets of population in California with the lowest vaccination rates causing the offset of herd immunity are located exactly where the objectors currently reside. In effect, they currently live in the areas of most "threat" and have made the conscious decision to do so.

    It follows that your guess about them rushing to get vaccinations would be incorrect, or would I be wrong?
    But even there the threat is very, very small. The last outbreak was 100 people out of millions because, despite the anti's, herd immunity is still largely intact.

    Second, if the anti-vaxxers had their own school, that's better, and then a measles outbreak gets all of those kids but hopefully doesn't spread to others. But as is those anti's put at risk those with weakened immunity and those for whom the vaccine doesn't work.

    As I said, I see your point of view and recognize it's legitimate, but I fall on the other side. I see no problem with the choice they're given. No vaccines is fine, but don't increase the risk for others, so stay home for school.

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    Re: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    But even there the threat is very, very small. The last outbreak was 100 people out of millions because, despite the anti's, herd immunity is still largely intact.

    Second, if the anti-vaxxers had their own school, that's better, and then a measles outbreak gets all of those kids but hopefully doesn't spread to others. But as is those anti's put at risk those with weakened immunity and those for whom the vaccine doesn't work.

    As I said, I see your point of view and recognize it's legitimate, but I fall on the other side. I see no problem with the choice they're given. No vaccines is fine, but don't increase the risk for others, so stay home for school.
    But again, that's great until they are 18, then what? What happens when they go to work with others who have infants? Have cancer? Or are immune compromised?

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    Re: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

    Quote Originally Posted by pilot16 View Post
    But again, that's great until they are 18, then what? What happens when they go to work with others who have infants? Have cancer? Or are immune compromised?
    I'm not getting your point. I strongly support vaccinations and don't see a problem with requiring parents to either vaccinate their child or home school them. I don't know the numbers but my assumption is the few who can home school and elect to do so will not pose a significant risk to herd immunity. It's certainly a better option than allowing unlimited 'conscience' objections in my view. And I also don't see an acceptable alternative. I wouldn't approve forcibly administering a vaccine. But if a, e.g., public school or private employer won't hire you because you elect NOT to have them, fine with me. You have a choice and that choice has consequences. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me.
    Last edited by JasperL; 07-01-15 at 04:34 PM.

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    Re: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Most people who get arrested and are subsequently charged with a crime may spend some time "in jail" while waiting to appear before a judge.

    You are the one who brought up the issue of prison, not me. If you don't like the answers don't try to derail the issue.
    It's not a derail. I'm trying to figure out how on earth you are ok with an assumption of guilt that can send you to prison but not ok with homeschooling, as alternatives to "invading my body."

    Assumed guilt good.
    Homeschool bad.

    I don't understand.



    Umm, excuse me? You read the post, what exactly are you asking me here?
    You claim to have a natural immunity. How do you know?
    Last edited by Deuce; 07-01-15 at 06:27 PM.

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    Re: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric7216 View Post
    Well, all infants are morons and we subsidize education for them so they won't be morons in the future. Having an educated populace is a public good, IMHO. And there are ways to ensure an educated public with a variety of subsidized programs, including home schooling.
    A society should have a method of reducing the likelihood of infectious disease outbreaks, or reducing the impact.
    Yes, we pay money to educate morons. We don't pay money to help infants continue ****ting in their pants into adulthood.

    And we don't pay money so that idiots can endanger their own children, and the children of others, with their moronic decision. We do have a method for reducing the likelihood of outbreaks: making unvaccinated children be homeschooled!

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    Re: California Law Requires Vaccinations to Attend School.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    You claim to have a natural immunity. How do you know?
    In reference to childhood disease if you catch one, let it run it's course, and recover from it, your body develops antibodies which typically prevent you from getting that particular disease again. I have been exposed to vectors of childhood diseases several times over my life and never suffered again.

    BTW, what exactly do you think happens when you get vaccinated as a child? Have you ever been re-vaccinated for those same childhood diseases in your lifetime? Have you ever caught any of the childhood diseases you were exposed to again? Perhaps if I said "acquired immunity" you'd accept it then?

    As for your confusion about a choice between blood test or presumption of intoxication, I've already explained it. If you remain confused, do your own research on the subject.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

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