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Thread: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

  1. #211
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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    the point being presented was that managers have a MORE IMPORTANT role than those they manage, and thus deserve more compensation
    Managers, in a supervisory role, tend to manage multiple people and have more responsibility than workers who are usually only concerned about themselves. Hence, they do deserve more in compensation. It's also becoming increasingly common for a manager to be fired over a business' poor performance. "More important" is a subjective definition, as all are important in their own way, but the fact that they have more responsibility is not.
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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    The only "entire country's economy" you cited was Yugoslavia's under Tito's totalitarian regime. Held together by force, only to fall apart immediately upon the man's death, is hardly a shining example.

    Nor was it the glorious workers paradise you seem to think it was.
    *Yugoslavia and Revolutionary Catalonia.

    I don't condone Tito's totalitarian actions, but free speech in Yugoslavia was fairly unrestricted, and Yugoslavia was far less totalitarian and had a far higher quality of life than communist countries and was on par with the western world in terms of development. Yugoslavia fell because the ethnic tensions that Tito managed to suppress during his rule turned into all out conflict after his death. The fall of the country had nothing to do with self-management.

    Revolutionary Catalonia only existed as a self-managing economy for a couple of years, but it was not held together by totalitarianism, and the fall of the country was because of invasion by a neighboring country (Spain).
    Social democrat is no longer an accurate description of my views.

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    Implementation of self-management does face some problems given the current structure of the employment hierarchy in the US. I support encouragement of self-management as an alternative business model with an eventual goal of an economy based on worker self-management. That being said, given the multiple examples of successful self-managing businesses today, and past countries where the entire country's economy was governed under self-management, I hardly see why the evidence that it is a successful business model are limited.



    A wage is what a worker's livelihood consists of, and I disagree with the premise that workers in some occupations are entitled to a higher standard of living than workers in other occupations. I'm not suggesting that everyone should be paid the same wage, but there is not a moral argument in favor of wage inequality, and said inequalities should be reduced.

    If you must know, the answer is that I have, but I ignored it because your attempt to make this into a personal argument to prove some sort of point is asinine.



    Animal Farm was based on a criticism of Soviet-esque central planning, not worker self-management.





    There's some issues with the meritocratic standards you're proposing. Effort certainly cannot accurately be measured by education in a society where education is not a right of all people. The fact that all members of the Supreme Court attended Ivy League universities comes to mind as an example of how education can be based on factors other than effort, but rather previous wealth from upbringing. This means that those coming from a wealthy background are going to be naturally predisposed to positions of management and higher pay, while those from a working class background do not have the resources to move up in society. It's not as though all occupations give workers a genuine ability to show off their talent and move up as a result; factory workers in assembly lines generally do the same action all day, and they don't have the opportunity to display their skills and potential by simply doing their job superbly. And if it's difficult for employers themselves to measure the talent of their employees, alternate employers are certainly not going to be able to do so. The principle that an underappreciated employee can simply go somewhere else where they are appreciated doesn't hold true for blue collar, working class occupations. Management is control over the livelihood of employees, so it is advantageous to the workers themselves to fill the position of management under the system of worker self-management because it means that they have control over their own livelihood.
    The Soviet regime began with worker self-management and always claimed the reforms implemented by Comrade Stalin were merely the fuller realization of the concept. And I'm sure Clarence Thomas's parents would be surprised to learn they were wealthy.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    A wage is what a worker's livelihood consists of, and I disagree with the premise that workers in some occupations are entitled to a higher standard of living than workers in other occupations. I'm not suggesting that everyone should be paid the same wage, but there is not a moral argument in favor of wage inequality, and said inequalities should be reduced.

    If you must know, the answer is that I have, but I ignored it because your attempt to make this into a personal argument to prove some sort of point is asinine.
    You are pontificating on putting controls on society to remedy your own perceived inequalities in life or standards of living. An evaluation of whether you are ignorant or nave is far from asinine--of course, that wasn't the only point to which you neglected to reply.

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    The Soviet regime began with worker self-management and always claimed the reforms implemented by Comrade Stalin were merely the fuller realization of the concept. And I'm sure Clarence Thomas's parents would be surprised to learn they were wealthy.
    I'm not advocating for an establishment of a vanguard party or anything remotely similar to the Soviet Union's structure of government, so it puzzles me why you'd think that advocating for self-management is advocating for Soviet economic policy. In regards to Clarence Thomas, you're pointing at the exception to the rule.
    Social democrat is no longer an accurate description of my views.

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    How often to do you thinks unions are able to get everyone to join the union?
    How often? Depends on the position, the union, the state, etc.


    Sorry, but it pretty much does.
    No. Not even close. Essentially every employee has the right to unionize.

    As an employer I can't stop you have unionizing, and when you do, I must negotiate with you and provide you certain things.
    Do you understand the concept of the union? Collective bargaining? Power in numbers?

    Yes, it could be, but benefits aren't a necessary component of it.
    In negotiations between a union and the employeer they are almost always a component and a necessary component.

    So unions decide who is going to be hired? News to me.
    Never said that. They are involved in voting up or down the contract bargained to...

    Those are not necessary parts of the agreement.





    That's not what I said.
    No it is.
    "I guess racism in the past was ok too then. Hell, I bet hating on gays was completely fine and dandy too. Gosh, your logic is just fantastic."



    No, I'm saying that the employer must talk to unions.
    Yes... That is what a non-right to work state is...


    It has to do with the possible consequences for not negotiating with the union. Government doesn't just allow businesses to stop their places of employment from being a union shop.
    Because its a right. And this case the USSC is going to be hearing is literally government employees negotiating with other government employees.
    Just a democratic-socialist in the heartland of America.CHECK OUT MY TUMBLR(BLOG)HERE "Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression, and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    that isn't the issue.

    She is not just paying for union dues and contracting. Her complaint is that unions are spending her dues on political campaigns that do not reflect her
    views as a person.
    But they dont.... Union dues do not go to lobbying efforts. Her complaint is about that she believes that collective bargaining is a violation of her first amendment rights.

    however at the same time the union politics should be a separate fund in which if member choose they can pay into.
    the people that just pay for the contracting part would of course pay a lower rate than people who choose to donate
    to political campaigns.

    in the last election the largest teachers union spent 22m dollars in super packs.

    with all their complaining about teacher pay I am sure that 22m dollars would have been spent better helping the people
    they represent instead of giving it to some political campaign.

    the fact that unions are misusing due money to push political agenda's vs helping the people they are supposed to represent is more telling
    of why her case is valid.
    Union dues do not pay for lobbying efforts, campaign efforts, etc.
    Just a democratic-socialist in the heartland of America.CHECK OUT MY TUMBLR(BLOG)HERE "Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression, and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by scatt View Post
    You thinking the union benefits them does not mean they actually benefit them. In fact, not long ago there was a bakery union that literally killed thousands of jobs for non-bakery union members, and the bakery union members.
    Better healthcare, education money, better pay, vacation, etc doesnt benefit people better? Im guessing that why 9 times out of 10 you compare a union job to a non-union job that union job has better pay and benefits.
    Just a democratic-socialist in the heartland of America.CHECK OUT MY TUMBLR(BLOG)HERE "Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression, and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Better healthcare, education money, better pay, vacation, etc doesnt benefit people better? Im guessing that why 9 times out of 10 you compare a union job to a non-union job that union job has better pay and benefits.
    Since unions are so amazing, I could definitely see them growing in size once people learn these absolutely true "facts."


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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by scatt View Post
    Since unions are so amazing, I could definitely see them growing in size once people learn these absolutely true "facts."

    So lower union membership means.... What exactly? Their benefits are ****ty?

    Are you using the fact that union membership has drastically declined overtime (which is true, and I have never said that wasnt true) equated to what?
    Just a democratic-socialist in the heartland of America.CHECK OUT MY TUMBLR(BLOG)HERE "Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression, and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

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