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Thread: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    [QUOTE=SocialDemocrat;1064786650]Management is not a job worthy of more pay than other jobs. There are always going to be discrepancies in wages due to the nature of capitalism, but the idea that given two jobs of equal working time, one is deserving of higher wages is frankly ridiculous. When talking about wages, we are talking about people's livelihoods. That's not something that should be subjected to competition.

    Worker self-management is an existing concept. Ending the major discrepancies between in benefits between employer and employee is not going to result in mass chaos because it doesn't mean no one manages. The job of management is democratized.[/QUOTE)

    Greetings, Social Democrat.

    I don't understand your argument. If I am an employer, and I have two employees doing the same job, and I note that one of them is taking personal time to get more schooling or training, as an example, which one of them am I likely to promote to a higher position with more responsibility? I'm going to lose the best people to a competitor If their effort is not recognized at some point. Management almost always involves being responsible for decision making for the people you manage, plus longer working hours, and is worth higher pay. The saying that "cream rises to the top" has merit in most cases - otherwise it sounds like you are thinking of sweat shops, and most people leave those as soon as they are able.
    Last edited by polgara; 07-05-15 at 07:21 AM.

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Greetings, Social Democrat.

    I don't understand your argument. If I am an employer, and I have two employees doing the same job, and I note that one of them is taking personal time to get more schooling or training, as an example, which one of them am I likely to promote to a higher position with more responsibility? I'm going to lose the best people to a competitor If their effort is not recognized at some point. Management almost always involves being responsible for decision making for the people you manage, plus longer working hours, and is worth higher pay. The saying that "cream rises to the top" has merit in most cases - otherwise it sounds like you are thinking of sweat shops, and most people leave those as soon as they are able.
    It is the rare person, indeed, that will gladly and willingly take on extra responsibility for no added compensation.
    Huntsman / Kasich 2020

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Management isn't a more important job, requiring more experience and more valuable skills....

    Donchaknow?
    let's examine the example of a hospital, where its administrators oversee/manage the activities of the well trained physicians/surgeons
    does your observation apply?
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    Quote Originally Posted by BrewerBob View Post
    The Democrats couldn't be more tone deaf if they had their eardrums incinerated with a hot poker.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Why confuse things with facts?

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    [QUOTE=polgara;1064789589]
    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    Management is not a job worthy of more pay than other jobs. There are always going to be discrepancies in wages due to the nature of capitalism, but the idea that given two jobs of equal working time, one is deserving of higher wages is frankly ridiculous. When talking about wages, we are talking about people's livelihoods. That's not something that should be subjected to competition.

    Worker self-management is an existing concept. Ending the major discrepancies between in benefits between employer and employee is not going to result in mass chaos because it doesn't mean no one manages. The job of management is democratized.[/QUOTE)

    Greetings, Social Democrat.

    I don't understand your argument. If I am an employer, and I have two employees doing the same job, and I note that one of them is taking personal time to get more schooling or training, as an example, which one of them am I likely to promote to a higher position with more responsibility? I'm going to lose the best people to a competitor If their effort is not recognized at some point. Management almost always involves being responsible for decision making for the people you manage, plus longer working hours, and is worth higher pay. The saying that "cream rises to the top" has merit in most cases - otherwise it sounds like you are thinking of sweat shops, and most people leave those as soon as they are able.
    [emphasis added by bubba to facilitate this post]

    let's say the other employee, the one not in school, consistently hits higher performance targets than the student and is found a better co-worker by the other employees
    do you still make that same promotion decision?
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    Quote Originally Posted by BrewerBob View Post
    The Democrats couldn't be more tone deaf if they had their eardrums incinerated with a hot poker.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Why confuse things with facts?

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    let's examine the example of a hospital, where its administrators oversee/manage the activities of the well trained physicians/surgeons
    does your observation apply?
    Many doctors/surgeons are horrible business people and would go broke if they didn't hire someone competent to manage their offices for them.
    Huntsman / Kasich 2020

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    I am familiar with concepts involving self management. And true examples are limited at best. Further, having leadership share decision making power is not some new idea, nor should it be considered a radical new business model. What I see is an attempt to co-opt a common business practice into something that it isn't.
    Implementation of self-management does face some problems given the current structure of the employment hierarchy in the US. I support encouragement of self-management as an alternative business model with an eventual goal of an economy based on worker self-management. That being said, given the multiple examples of successful self-managing businesses today, and past countries where the entire country's economy was governed under self-management, I hardly see why the evidence that it is a successful business model are limited.

    Quote Originally Posted by AliHajiSheik View Post
    I understood you to mean two job positions. You see no difference in the salary potential of two different jobs is even more silly.

    You conveniently ignored the rest. I take it that you never have signed the front of a paycheck.
    A wage is what a worker's livelihood consists of, and I disagree with the premise that workers in some occupations are entitled to a higher standard of living than workers in other occupations. I'm not suggesting that everyone should be paid the same wage, but there is not a moral argument in favor of wage inequality, and said inequalities should be reduced.

    If you must know, the answer is that I have, but I ignored it because your attempt to make this into a personal argument to prove some sort of point is asinine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Sooner or later "worker self-management" leads to some animals being more equal than others.
    Animal Farm was based on a criticism of Soviet-esque central planning, not worker self-management.

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post

    Greetings, Social Democrat.

    I don't understand your argument. If I am an employer, and I have two employees doing the same job, and I note that one of them is taking personal time to get more schooling or training, as an example, which one of them am I likely to promote to a higher position with more responsibility? I'm going to lose the best people to a competitor If their effort is not recognized at some point. Management almost always involves being responsible for decision making for the people you manage, plus longer working hours, and is worth higher pay. The saying that "cream rises to the top" has merit in most cases - otherwise it sounds like you are thinking of sweat shops, and most people leave those as soon as they are able.


    There's some issues with the meritocratic standards you're proposing. Effort certainly cannot accurately be measured by education in a society where education is not a right of all people. The fact that all members of the Supreme Court attended Ivy League universities comes to mind as an example of how education can be based on factors other than effort, but rather previous wealth from upbringing. This means that those coming from a wealthy background are going to be naturally predisposed to positions of management and higher pay, while those from a working class background do not have the resources to move up in society. It's not as though all occupations give workers a genuine ability to show off their talent and move up as a result; factory workers in assembly lines generally do the same action all day, and they don't have the opportunity to display their skills and potential by simply doing their job superbly. And if it's difficult for employers themselves to measure the talent of their employees, alternate employers are certainly not going to be able to do so. The principle that an underappreciated employee can simply go somewhere else where they are appreciated doesn't hold true for blue collar, working class occupations. Management is control over the livelihood of employees, so it is advantageous to the workers themselves to fill the position of management under the system of worker self-management because it means that they have control over their own livelihood.
    Social democrat is no longer an accurate description of my views.

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    [QUOTE=justabubba;1064790116]
    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    [emphasis added by bubba to facilitate this post]

    let's say the other employee, the one not in school, consistently hits higher performance targets than the student and is found a better co-worker by the other employees
    do you still make that same promotion decision?
    Greetings, justabubba.

    That's a toughie, because I wasn't thinking "student" but an employee who has been with the company about the same length of time - however, in the case you cited, assuming the above, I'd have to go with the high performer,because he'd have already proven his worth, especially if both are out in the field as sales reps, since that would impact my bottom line almost immediately. In order to give encouragement to the one not chosen, I would explain my decision, and assure him that he is still at the top of my list of possible future candidates for promotion.

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Many doctors/surgeons are horrible business people and would go broke if they didn't hire someone competent to manage their offices for them.
    the point being presented was that managers have a MORE IMPORTANT role than those they manage, and thus deserve more compensation
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    Quote Originally Posted by BrewerBob View Post
    The Democrats couldn't be more tone deaf if they had their eardrums incinerated with a hot poker.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Why confuse things with facts?

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    let's examine the example of a hospital, where its administrators oversee/manage the activities of the well trained physicians/surgeons
    does your observation apply?
    Hospital administrators do not manage physicians and surgeons. They manage everybody else. Physicians and surgeons are independent contractors and are invited to practice there by the other doctors on staff. Hospital administrators work for the board of directors and manage the hospital for the doctors. The doctors can remove a hospital administrator that doesn't get the job done. Some doctors take no compensation from hospitals. My father, a surgeon, was chief of staff of his hospital. He sat on the hospital board to represent the other doctors and was involved in consulting with hospital management on issues relating to medical practice. He was involved in accepting new members to the medical staff. It would be more accurate to say that the hospital administrators work for the doctors.

    When a surgeon wants to schedule a surgery, he or his staff contact the hospital staff and schedule it. It is then the job of the hospital staff to be sure everything necessary is there for the surgeon to get the job done. The surgeon's staff will normally schedule an anesthesiologist of choice and surgical nurses and assistants of choice. When my father operated, he had a couple of favored anesthesiologists and surgical nurses that he chose for every procedure. The anesthesiologists were members of the medical staff and the nurses were employed by the hospital. You talk like the hospital administrator calls the doctor up and tells him to perform surgery on Tuesday morning. It doesn't work that way. Hospital management and staff work at the pleasure of the medical staff.

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    Implementation of self-management does face some problems given the current structure of the employment hierarchy in the US. I support encouragement of self-management as an alternative business model with an eventual goal of an economy based on worker self-management. That being said, given the multiple examples of successful self-managing businesses today, and past countries where the entire country's economy was governed under self-management, I hardly see why the evidence that it is a successful business model are limited.
    The only "entire country's economy" you cited was Yugoslavia's under Tito's totalitarian regime. Held together by force, only to fall apart immediately upon the man's death, is hardly a shining example.

    Nor was it the glorious workers paradise you seem to think it was.
    Huntsman / Kasich 2020

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