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Thread: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    which you are unable to explain in direct English without pretending you are oh so clever that you can wrap your words in vitriolic insults.
    it was written in direct English and you comprehension problems are not mine to deal with.

    it's very telling that you see the words "right wing" as an insult though.... very telling indeed.

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    if the unions did not help the employees, then why do many employers expend so much time and money trying to keep the unions out?
    good point - the facts are the facts and they clearly show that unions help their employees

    Labor Secretary Thomas Perez says union members earn $200 more a week than those not in unions | PolitiFact

    By contrast, the biggest gaps come in fields such as "protective service occupations" (a difference of $459 a week) and "construction" (a difference of $383 a week). Protective service occupations includes correctional officers, police, firefighters, animal control workers, lifeguards, and security guards.

    "Unions do more to raise the wages of workers with less-than-average education than they do to boost the wages of those with better-than-average education," said Gary Burtless, an economist with the Brookings Institution. "Unionized Ph.D.s do not gain as much from being in a union as high school dropouts, though even unionized Ph.D.s may enjoy a bit better job security and receive bigger helpings of health and retirement benefits than their non-union counterparts."

    • If you include fringe benefits, the difference between union members and non-union workers grows.

    According to BLS data from 2011, workers’ pay plus benefts for a 40-hour week was $1,508 for a union employee and $1,083 for a non-union worker. That’s a gap of $425 -- more than double the gap in the figures cited by Perez.

    "Unions are typically more successful in getting good fringe benefits – especially health benefits, sickness pay, and retirement benefits – than in raising workers’ money wages," Burtless said.

    Our ruling

    Perez said. "If you have a union job, you're making on average $950 a week. If you have a non-union job, you're making $750 a week."

    His figures are correct, but with an asterisk -- Perez should have specified "median" when he said "average." In general, though, his overall point is backed up by the data. We rate his claim Mostly True.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    it was written in direct English and you comprehension problems are not mine to deal with.

    it's very telling that you see the words "right wing" as an insult though.... very telling indeed.
    I am simply waiting for you to explain what you wrote and not simply pretend you are the smartest boy in class who can throw vitriolic crap around instead of facts and reason.

    Lets start with your charge that I am right wing. Lets see the facts and your explanation for that accusation.

    how very right wing of you....

    enough of your right wing politics.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Management can't do a thing
    incompetent management cannot
    competent management would document their issue to assure the employee was properly disciplined

    - the employee files a grievance,
    only AFTER management initiates its efforts to discipline
    notice now why it is so important for management to do ITS job in this matter?

    ... the union backs their laziness
    the union, under federal law, MUST fairly represent the employee
    but as a long time union official, be assured that the union cannot defend the indefensible and win
    again, see now why it is so important for management to fulfill its obligation and document its basis for discipline?
    do that, and the wayward employee should not prevail

    ... the amount of documentation and evidence to win at a grievance is fairly high
    you are correct on this point
    it is usually management which initiates the action and labor which pursues the grievance
    and unless labor can demonstrate why management operated outside the provisions of the contract, management's disciplinary action will stand

    ... and when a manager has a real need of these guys to work, they suddenly develop a vague sickness or require mental evaluation with a psychologist and go on light duty required by a union physician.
    never heard of a union physician; but i cannot say they do not exist. normally, the bargaining unit employee will be required to have a doctor's note attesting to the medical circumstance faced by the employee. should the physician's concern for the employee's health be disregarded?
    but again, if the employee is acting outside the provisions of the contract, all management has to do is enforce the contract terms and document how the employee is acting outside of them

    Even if you get them out - guess who takes their place? Someone just like the one who just left...
    sounds like yet another instance of management incompetence: consistently hiring weak applicants

    Good management decides to bypass the unions and go with contractors.
    that's an approach - UNLESS the union was savvy enough to negotiate provisions that defined the circumstances in which a contractor could be hired
    the best management operates so well with the employees' needs in mind that the employees do not feel the need to seek union assistance
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    Quote Originally Posted by BrewerBob View Post
    The Democrats couldn't be more tone deaf if they had their eardrums incinerated with a hot poker.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Why confuse things with facts?

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    incompetent management cannot
    competent management would document their issue to assure the employee was properly disciplined


    only AFTER management initiates its efforts to discipline
    notice now why it is so important for management to do ITS job in this matter?


    the union, under federal law, MUST fairly represent the employee
    but as a long time union official, be assured that the union cannot defend the indefensible and win
    again, see now why it is so important for management to fulfill its obligation and document its basis for discipline?
    do that, and the wayward employee should not prevail


    you are correct on this point
    it is usually management which initiates the action and labor which pursues the grievance
    and unless labor can demonstrate why management operated outside the provisions of the contract, management's disciplinary action will stand


    never heard of a union physician; but i cannot say they do not exist. normally, the bargaining unit employee will be required to have a doctor's note attesting to the medical circumstance faced by the employee. should the physician's concern for the employee's health be disregarded?
    but again, if the employee is acting outside the provisions of the contract, all management has to do is enforce the contract terms and document how the employee is acting outside of them


    sounds like yet another instance of management incompetence: consistently hiring weak applicants


    that's an approach - UNLESS the union was savvy enough to negotiate provisions that defined the circumstances in which a contractor could be hired
    the best management operates so well with the employees' needs in mind that the employees do not feel the need to seek union assistance
    The manager does not have complete control over who is hired - union employees with the highest seniority get the better positions. If the removed worker is replaced, it's by the person next in line who has the same qualifications and highest seniority - who may just be worse then the person just removed, and the cycle starts all over again. That's the cat and mouse game that's been happening for decades now. I'm not saying that all union employees are bad by any stretch but some do the bare minimum and some do less than that with the only REAL discipline being a note in their employee file and being moved to a new position, sometimes under the SAME manager. I've seen both healthy management - union locations and poisonous ones. Even in the healthy one's grievances are fairly common.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Seriously? That's even worse than I thought.

    What happens if they're on the road and a bird hits a mirror and knocks it out of whack? Do they pull over and wait for a union approved maintenance guy to come out and adjust it back? (I'm being facetious, but it wouldn't knock me over if you said 'yes'.)
    I've never been called out to adjust a mirror other than at the terminal... but there are other simple things i've been called out for on the road... most of which the driver couldn't handle even if he wanted to ( they lacked tools and parts)
    drivers could add oil or adjust mirrors, but only during their pre-trip or post trip inspections.. if it was the middle of their trip or shift, it fell on me to get it done.

    I loved going out on the road.... I'm on the clock when my ass hits the truck seat, and i'm paid until i get home... and they paid mileage.... time and half after hours ( after 5 pm), double time on sundays.. triple on holidays.
    the kicker is.. i didn't negotiate those terms... they were dictated and nonnegotiable


    it gets worse, much worse, though... but as I said, i made a ton of money from such idiocy.... it was a running joke between me , the drivers, and management.
    hell, when i walked in to get the work, the GM told me " you'll be a rich man if you can keep up with all the small stuff.... you'll be out of a job if you can't"
    I didn't realize until much later that was something he could have never told any of his own employees.

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I am simply waiting for you to explain what you wrote and not simply pretend you are the smartest boy in class who can throw vitriolic crap around instead of facts and reason.

    Lets start with your charge that I am right wing. Lets see the facts and your explanation for that accusation.
    stop try to make your comprehension skills my problem....

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    it's not "bs" .. it's common... especially in the trucking industry (Teamsters dominated)
    oh, it's BS alright as you have documented for me

    ...jobs are strictly defined and workers are not allowed to go beyond those definitions under the guise of stealing work from another worker.
    what you are telling us is that management agreed to a contract in which its employees were limited in the functions they could fulfill
    management agreed to that
    yet you want to pretend labor is the problem

    if this guy was hired as a fueler, there's nothing else he would be allowed to do....
    if the terminal had a janitor, he wouldn't even be allowed to push a broom to fill his time when he wasn't fueling.
    so, you wanted the janitor to do two jobs: custodial and re-fueling
    i imagine you would expect an airline pilot to both fly the plane and hand out snacks to the passengers

    I made a ton of money off of such "bs" rules... a ton.
    and yet you object to unions
    how odd to object to what is admittedly very beneficial for you

    my night were busy making service call to the terminals to do things the drivers weren't allowed to do.. such as adjusting their mirrors, checking/adding oil to their trucks.. replacing a mudflap or a marker light bulb.
    these maintenance items that management agreed under contract that drivers were not obligated to perform
    and you are blaming the union for acting in the best interests of its employees?
    foolish

    if I could string together 2 or 3 simple jobs, I could make close to a grand a night.
    I absolutely loved hearing that phone ring at night.
    that personal windfall, and yet you object to union rights. how odd

    Conway ( non-union) is another story... there were no simple night calls for me there... they actually had their drivers do the simple things.
    being a non-union company, they also had much better equipment.. such as trucks with electric mirrors
    so, management of the unionized company, recognizing it had a problem with aligning its mirrors, opted NOT to purchase electric mirrors but instead hire another classification of worker to perform that task manually

    notice how in every instance the stupidity you have identified has been management's?!
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    Quote Originally Posted by BrewerBob View Post
    The Democrats couldn't be more tone deaf if they had their eardrums incinerated with a hot poker.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Why confuse things with facts?

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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    stop try to make your comprehension skills my problem....
    Stop trying to fake it like you explained your accusation that I was guilty of taking right wing positions and pushing right wing politics then. You are obviously impotent to document or explain these false charges.

    And continuing to insult me only shines and even greater spotlight on your own inability to offer this evidence you have been unable to present so far.
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    Re: Supreme Court to Weigh Dispute Over Union Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    oh, it's BS alright as you have documented for me
    no, it's not BS.. you';re a union sychophants, you should know better than to call it BS.


    what you are telling us is that management agreed to a contract in which its employees were limited in the functions they could fulfill
    management agreed to that
    yet you want to pretend labor is the problem
    and here you are inferring management has the same negotiating position as unions
    " oh, we demanded something backed by the threat of a strike.. but it's not our fault we won those terms ..we had nothing to do with it.".. sell stupid so someone who is buying.


    so, you wanted the janitor to do two jobs: custodial and re-fueling
    i imagine you would expect an airline pilot to both fly the plane and hand out snacks to the passengers
    whoa whoa whoa.. i thought you just called it "bs"?..and now you're making anrgument for what you previously called BS?.. image my surprise.



    and yet you object to unions
    how odd to object to what is admittedly very beneficial for you
    I object to public sector unions... not private sector unions.
    I have issues with certain specific items, polcies, and behaviors.. but overall, i do not object to private sector unions.


    these maintenance items that management agreed under contract that drivers were not obligated to perform
    and you are blaming the union for acting in the best interests of its employees?
    foolish
    depends on how you define "best interest"...
    ya see, saving money and time by having drivers adjust their own mirrors frees up funds for such things as .. new trucks, better terminals.. or even more land to build a ship to hire mechanics.
    but , meh, i guess better equipment or more jobs isn't in the "best interest" of the employees.


    that personal windfall, and yet you object to union rights. how odd
    i've told you what my position on union... you can adjust your comments accordingly now.


    so, management of the unionized company, recognizing it had a problem with aligning its mirrors, opted NOT to purchase electric mirrors but instead hire another classification of worker to perform that task manually

    notice how in every instance the stupidity you have identified has been management's?!
    ..you couldn't sound more clueless if you tried. .. "mirror adjuster" is not a classification of worker.
    it's a simple task inherent to driving a truck, as every truck driver knows... the point is that the unions disallow doing this simple task when it's not part of a pre or post trip inspection....

    but i get it.. unions hold no responsibly for anything.. it's always management's fault for everything...I've heard that same tune played many times before..

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