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Thread: KKK Plans Confederate Flag Rally at SC Capitol

  1. #251
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    Re: KKK Plans Confederate Flag Rally at SC Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by HorseLoverGirl View Post
    Like I said, history. One word.
    As spoken by grandpa, got it.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: KKK Plans Confederate Flag Rally at SC Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    It sure does....It herald's a day where SC politicians give in to mob demands instead of governing.
    Its "mob demands" when it's an issue you disagree with, otherwise, legislators ought to govern the will of their constituency. Fascinating the desperation to retain the practice to so proudly display symbols of oppression and darkness. As some have already stated, a museum is a proper place for such.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: KKK Plans Confederate Flag Rally at SC Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    So, it wasn't good enough for you to have a polite conversation, no. You had to not only call into question what vets told her grandfather, but further insult her by demanding that she document, and research for you what was related to her from her grandfather, instead of doing your own research, as though you are someone who is deserving of some deference in matter. IOW, you were rude, and arrogant. If you don't believe her, fine, you don't have to, but you don't have to be rude in expressing that.
    The response is to a person asserting that the rest of us don't know our history. Examples.

    Go back to school as fast as you can.
    In other words you rely on the revisionist claims. Totally figures.
    Too bad for you. The truth is out there, I don't think most here have grasped it yet.
    How insanely dense can one person be??????????????? SHEESH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have told you I do not know how many times now that YES I belong to the UDC and YES their magazine has more Southern history in it than any freaking book, unless it is a biography of a notable Confederate maybe.
    insanity strikes again with the revisionist deniers. UGH!!!!!
    So we're citing history, with links. The response is we're wrong, revisionists, etc. with no source anyone can possibly verify, even to check that the article the person claimed to read was written or that the person is remembering it accurately. No quotes, no context, no author. The second source is what she says she remembers about what her grandfather told her.

    I'm sorry, but if you're going to assert that others don't understand history, and all you've got as "evidence" is what you say you remember from an unsourced cite from a Confederate friendly magazine that you've given away, and the oral traditions of your grandfather, you have to expect those "sources" to be repeatedly challenged and to square those claims with dozens of cites freely available on the web that directly contradict those claims.

    For example, if one claims the Civil War wasn't fought mainly over the issue of slavery, then someone will have to square that with the seceding states, who repeatedly tell us their insurmountable problem is...slavery. Such as Mississippi -

    In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

    Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery....
    "I read a magazine article a while back that says it was about taxes or something..." doesn't cut it. Not by any standards of intelligent debate.

    What would a resident of Utah know of "Southern History"? Other than the revision undergone by years of liberal indoctrination that is?
    You've made an assertion of "revision undergone by years of liberal indoctrination." What revision? What part of history are the "liberals" presenting wrong in this conversation? This is a debate site. If you make a statement accusing others of being wrong on the FACTS, the HISTORY, the expectation is you and the poster in question have evidence to back that up. It's normal to demand that evidence.

  4. #254
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    Re: KKK Plans Confederate Flag Rally at SC Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    The response is to a person asserting that the rest of us don't know our history. Examples.











    So we're citing history, with links. The response is we're wrong, revisionists, etc. with no source anyone can possibly verify, even to check that the article the person claimed to read was written or that the person is remembering it accurately. No quotes, no context, no author. The second source is what she says she remembers about what her grandfather told her.

    I'm sorry, but if you're going to assert that others don't understand history, and all you've got as "evidence" is what you say you remember from an unsourced cite from a Confederate friendly magazine that you've given away, and the oral traditions of your grandfather, you have to expect those "sources" to be repeatedly challenged and to square those claims with dozens of cites freely available on the web that directly contradict those claims.

    For example, if one claims the Civil War wasn't fought mainly over the issue of slavery, then someone will have to square that with the seceding states, who repeatedly tell us their insurmountable problem is...slavery. Such as Mississippi -



    "I read a magazine article a while back that says it was about taxes or something..." doesn't cut it. Not by any standards of intelligent debate.
    Oh, so this is "intelligent debate" now, is it? When did that change Jasper? For as long as I've been in these boards (over 15 years now) I don't really see anymore that glorified pissing matches over who thinks they know more than everyone else...(that's the primary reason I took a little break recently)

    However, if that is how you feel about her argument, then might I suggest that you ask her to cite with a link rather than resorting to the usual "nanny nanny boo boo, I'm smarter than you" tactics that do nothing and are quite childish to read....

    Now, earlier in this thread, or one of the others I posted some from the letters that different states used to inform Washington of secession. Now I am not saying that slavery didn't weigh heavily in the list of grievances, however, there is more to consider when looking at that, such as the subsidization of the northern states in a way to effect the south's economy. Also, when the territories were split up, the federal government along with the northern states changed the rules unconstitutionally.

    So, as I see it, that was the first war over progressive theory.

    You've made an assertion of "revision undergone by years of liberal indoctrination." What revision? What part of history are the "liberals" presenting wrong in this conversation? This is a debate site. If you make a statement accusing others of being wrong on the FACTS, the HISTORY, the expectation is you and the poster in question have evidence to back that up. It's normal to demand that evidence.
    Ok, fair enough. However, as to what liberal/progressive revision, all one has to do is read through one of these threads to see how people don't really know anything substantive about our history....Just go straight to Civil War was fought over slavery and hey, you get an A.....Nope....not really, we all loose.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: KKK Plans Confederate Flag Rally at SC Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Its "mob demands" when it's an issue you disagree with, otherwise, legislators ought to govern the will of their constituency. Fascinating the desperation to retain the practice to so proudly display symbols of oppression and darkness. As some have already stated, a museum is a proper place for such.
    No, it's 'mob demand' when the heritage of a state can be brushed to a trash bin so easily when one mentally ill individual kills some people, and a picture of this individual holding a Confederate battle flag comes out through the media, and gins everyone up to getting it taken down....
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: KKK Plans Confederate Flag Rally at SC Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    No, it's 'mob demand' when the heritage of a state can be brushed to a trash bin so easily when one mentally ill individual kills some people, and a picture of this individual holding a Confederate battle flag comes out through the media, and gins everyone up to getting it taken down....
    Good point. One lunatic shows himself with a Confederate flag and the flag is banned, another tries to blow up a plane full of passengers with a shoe and now we're all shoeless in dignity-free lineups at airports.

    It seems we're allowing psychopathic killers, the worst any society has to offer, to establish the norms for everyone else.

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    Re: KKK Plans Confederate Flag Rally at SC Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Good point. One lunatic shows himself with a Confederate flag and the flag is banned, another tries to blow up a plane full of passengers with a shoe and now we're all shoeless in dignity-free lineups at airports.

    It seems we're allowing psychopathic killers, the worst any society has to offer, to establish the norms for everyone else.
    What is disturbing is how easily so many are manipulated...
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: KKK Plans Confederate Flag Rally at SC Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Oh, so this is "intelligent debate" now, is it? When did that change Jasper? For as long as I've been in these boards (over 15 years now) I don't really see anymore that glorified pissing matches over who thinks they know more than everyone else...(that's the primary reason I took a little break recently)

    However, if that is how you feel about her argument, then might I suggest that you ask her to cite with a link rather than resorting to the usual "nanny nanny boo boo, I'm smarter than you" tactics that do nothing and are quite childish to read....
    We did, I'm guessing well over a dozen times. And those are the responses that I quoted. Go back and review the history if you want.

    Now, earlier in this thread, or one of the others I posted some from the letters that different states used to inform Washington of secession. Now I am not saying that slavery didn't weigh heavily in the list of grievances, however, there is more to consider when looking at that, such as the subsidization of the northern states in a way to effect the south's economy. Also, when the territories were split up, the federal government along with the northern states changed the rules unconstitutionally.

    So, as I see it, that was the first war over progressive theory.
    OK, but they "changed the rules" about slavery. Nothing else about the territories mattered. The irreconcilable issue with "states' rights" was each state's right to enslave blacks forever. The Confederate Constitution prohibited any state from outlawing slavery. They didn't believe in states rights on that issue.

    Art I, Sec 9, Clause 4 - No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.
    ...
    IV, 3, (3) The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.

    Ok, fair enough. However, as to what liberal/progressive revision, all one has to do is read through one of these threads to see how people don't really know anything substantive about our history....Just go straight to Civil War was fought over slavery and hey, you get an A.....Nope....not really, we all loose.
    Of course nothing is that simple, but if you say _________ was the cause of the war, what it has to mean is if that issue was resolved, there would have been no war. So if it's taxes, then if the South got its way on taxes, they don't secede. If it's tariffs, and tariffs went to a lower level they don't secede. What seems clear from the record is there is only ONE issue you can put on that line and it is slavery. Slavery was the foundation of the Southern economy, and abolishing it completely dismantles the existing order, the power structure, the economy in the South - tariffs and taxes and the abstract concept of "states rights" don't come close to posing that kind of threat.

    We all know very well that no matter what Lincoln and the republicans in that era thought of taxes or tariffs, Lincoln's election doesn't cause every southern state to secede before he's inaugurated. What he and his party and the North in general thought about slavery DID prompt them all to secede. The Southern seceding states tell us this in their own words. Mississippi - "why did we secede? Slavery." Yes, there were other disputes that are no different than what we deal with today - rural, versus urban, big cities versus flyover country. Those are sometimes bitter but resolvable disputes. But the South didn't believe it was possible to solve the slavery issue with the North and especially with Lincoln. Their way of life was threatened. If you want to say they were right to defend their way of life which was anchored in, totally dependent on, slavery, fine. But don't pretend that it was tariffs that was the foundation of their way of life or taxes.....

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    Re: KKK Plans Confederate Flag Rally at SC Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    No, it's 'mob demand' when the heritage of a state can be brushed to a trash bin so easily when one mentally ill individual kills some people, and a picture of this individual holding a Confederate battle flag comes out through the media, and gins everyone up to getting it taken down....
    Has nothing to do with the "heritage of a state." Fact is that flag was flown by people defending Jim Crow in many of our lifetimes. That flag's memory will always be stained by how white racists in the highest positions of power in the South used it, which was the banner they raised in defense of Jim Crow.

    The flag defenders cannot even acknowledge the shameful but easily documented history of that flag even exists.

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    Re: KKK Plans Confederate Flag Rally at SC Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    We did, I'm guessing well over a dozen times. And those are the responses that I quoted. Go back and review the history if you want.



    OK, but they "changed the rules" about slavery. Nothing else about the territories mattered. The irreconcilable issue with "states' rights" was each state's right to enslave blacks forever. The Confederate Constitution prohibited any state from outlawing slavery. They didn't believe in states rights on that issue.






    Of course nothing is that simple, but if you say _________ was the cause of the war, what it has to mean is if that issue was resolved, there would have been no war. So if it's taxes, then if the South got its way on taxes, they don't secede. If it's tariffs, and tariffs went to a lower level they don't secede. What seems clear from the record is there is only ONE issue you can put on that line and it is slavery. Slavery was the foundation of the Southern economy, and abolishing it completely dismantles the existing order, the power structure, the economy in the South - tariffs and taxes and the abstract concept of "states rights" don't come close to posing that kind of threat.

    We all know very well that no matter what Lincoln and the republicans in that era thought of taxes or tariffs, Lincoln's election doesn't cause every southern state to secede before he's inaugurated. What he and his party and the North in general thought about slavery DID prompt them all to secede. The Southern seceding states tell us this in their own words. Mississippi - "why did we secede? Slavery." Yes, there were other disputes that are no different than what we deal with today - rural, versus urban, big cities versus flyover country. Those are sometimes bitter but resolvable disputes. But the South didn't believe it was possible to solve the slavery issue with the North and especially with Lincoln. Their way of life was threatened. If you want to say they were right to defend their way of life which was anchored in, totally dependent on, slavery, fine. But don't pretend that it was tariffs that was the foundation of their way of life or taxes.....
    All of it mattered...While slave labor was a catalyst for the South's economy, it wasn't the only reason that the states wanted out...DC was ignoring the constitution, and giving unfair treatment of the states in the form of taxation, and subsidy...That is a fact. You can argue where the emphasis should be in that argument, but as you, yourself said, NOTHING is that simple..
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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