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Thread: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays[W:297]

  1. #461
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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    I'll bet that if they're sued, it's more likely the result of animus rather than any sincerely felt "emotional damage".
    It would not be animus towards a group of people. It would be emotional damage and anger against the refusal of a person to do their job impartially. If they can't do that, they need to find another job.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    The case would be clerk vs State of Texas. If Texas loses, the only way it would go to Federal Court is if the Attorney General (the guy in the OP telling clerks they have this right) were to appeal. Doesn't seem too likely.
    It wouldn't only be a clerk vs state. If the state grants all clerks the right to refuse based on arbitrary religious freedom then any citizen who goes to get a marriage license who is refused will obviously take the state to court. If that happens and that state's supreme court once again agrees with the clerks right to religious freedom and effectively facilitates the act that allows the state clerks to continue to ban same sex marriage after the supreme court has just ordered that no state could do so then those gay citizens could appeal to a court higher than that state's supreme court. OF course, it wouldn't end at that state's supreme court - especially if, as you are suggesting, that state's supreme court has a bias against the community that is being negetively affected by the religious freedom act. These citizens are given more options to fight what they believe is an unfair ruling.

    Citizens can request an appeal even when they are challenging a State's Supreme Court. Usually it isn't granted. However - depending on how many clerks within this state refuse to issue the license it could become a large enough issue that the Supreme Court of the United States would have to once again take up the issue.

    Which circles back to my initial point. It just sounds like another fruitless battle that won't end in the religious right's favor.
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  3. #463
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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Under the law, the clerk wouldn't have a case, and you better believe that the state of Texas, even with such a lawsuit, would defend themselves to the highest possible extent.
    They do have a case, and I've already stated why it wouldn't go out of state court. The State AG need not appeal.

  4. #464
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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    I don't think any of those are examples of sincerely held religious beliefs.
    Religious beliefs are not dispensation from doing ones job.
    The flame that is between us could set every soul on fire. I would love to take that heat and let's fill the whole world with desire.
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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    They do have a case, and I've already stated why it wouldn't go out of state court. The State AG need not appeal.
    The majority of the cases would not be in the state's control though. The clerk would almost certainly first be sued or face some sort of legal action against him/her, not simply get fired. But even if they get fired, it would be for refusing to perform their job, not because of their religious beliefs.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  6. #466
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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Zinthaniel View Post
    It wouldn't only be a clerk vs state. If the state grants all clerks the right to refuse based on arbitrary religious freedom then any citizen who goes to get a marriage license who is refused will obviously take the state to court. If that happens and that state's supreme court once again agrees with the clerks right to religious freedom and effectively facilitates the act that allows the state clerks to continue to ban same sex marriage after the supreme court has just ordered that no state could do so then those gay citizens could appeal to a court higher than that state's supreme court. OF course, it wouldn't end at that state's supreme court - especially if, as you are suggesting, that state's supreme court has a bias against the community that is being negetively affected by the religious freedom act. These citizens are given more options to fight what they believe is an unfair ruling.

    Citizens can request an appeal even when they are challenging a State's Supreme Court. Usually it isn't granted. However - depending on how many clerks within this state refuse to issue the license it could become a large enough issue that the Supreme Court of the United States would have to once again take up the issue.

    Which circles back to my initial point. It just sounds like another fruitless battle that won't end in the religious right's favor.
    In fact, NC might be facing a challenge to a law that actually would do this very soon. And that law would go to federal court because the law itself can be challenged as unconstitutional, by restricting recourse against people who violate other laws simply because of someone's religious beliefs. The First Amendment was never meant to do that.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  7. #467
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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The law would be broken. You cannot discriminate against people, prevent them from getting a marriage license, which is part of your job, because of your religious objections. It still violates US laws, equal protection. You are an employee of the state, a representative of the state.
    Again, nobody is being prevented from getting a marriage license. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

    It doesn't matter which group of people someone is trying to deny a marriage license to so long as they are legally allowed to enter into a marriage with each other. That is their job. They would be fired for refusing to do their job, which is not legitimately imposing on your religious beliefs, unless you allow it do so. If someone doesn't believe that they can now perform their job, issue marriage licenses without discriminating to everyone, then they need to find another job now.
    Why do you feel this need to force someone to do something against their religious beliefs when an acceptable alternative can be worked out? The only plausible reason seems to be anti-religious animus.

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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It would not be animus towards a group of people. It would be emotional damage and anger against the refusal of a person to do their job impartially. If they can't do that, they need to find another job.
    I say 9 times out of 10 it's animus.

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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Again, nobody is being prevented from getting a marriage license. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

    Why do you feel this need to force someone to do something against their religious beliefs when an acceptable alternative can be worked out? The only plausible reason seems to be anti-religious animus.
    There almost certainly would be a delay in getting a marriage license, in some cases a delay of more than a few minutes, which is more than enough reason to file a complaint or lawsuit for violation of rights.

    I feel a need to force people to do their jobs, the jobs they agreed to do. I don't give a damn where their reasoning for wanting to deny same sex couples marriage licenses comes from, just as I really don't care where people get/got their beliefs for denying marriage to interracial couples comes/came from. It is still refusing to their job based on a belief against some other group. That is not animus toward religion. The fact that it affects certain people more than others doesn't prove animus toward that group that is affected more.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  10. #470
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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    I say 9 times out of 10 it's animus.
    I call bull. I guarantee that if someone at the DMV told you that they would not serve you due to your race, religion or sex, you would be pissed at that person and seek some sort of justice for having been made to feel like you weren't worth that person's time due to something out of your control, and not even because they were busy. It is their job to serve the public, the whole public, not just those they agree with.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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