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Thread: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays[W:297]

  1. #241
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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    What you're ignoring is the many ways being married or not affects our legal rights and responsibilities. They could open it up and say that 28 year old men can marry 4 year olds....
    Really? You want to take that leap? Hey, why not suggest that the 28 yr old man can marry his horse - the Supreme Court might back you up since they pull their rulings out of a horse's ass anyway.
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by keymanjim View Post
    In 37 states a girl of any age can consent to having an abortion at any age without her parent's permission. Why shouldn't they be able to consent to marriage? Of the two, marriage is less traumatizing.
    Also, a few months ago a judge in NY ruled that two chimpanzees had "legal person" status.
    Chimpanzees granted petition to hear 'legal persons' status in court | World news | The Guardian
    1. Marriage is a contract someone under the age of consent cannot enter into a contract.

    2. The chimp case has nothing to do with anything in regards to this debate. Granting them a hearing for status as "legal persons" does give them any rights that a human enjoys.
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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Th state can't make any discrimination for any reason? Why not?
    Did I say that? Please point out the error of my words. Or did I say that it's discrimination on its face and States shouldn't sanction discrimination?

    Reading comprehension is a joy to those with the talent.

    If you want to have an argument about a different subject, feel free to bug someone else who may care.
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

  4. #244
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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    I think that is a bit of hyperbole. There are state and federal laws protecting children.
    The comment was that the state would get out of the business and recognize any couple. Obviously the state will regulate marriage, if nothing else to prevent valid marriages between an adult and a toddler or young child.
    However, it is possible for a state to blackmail a religious organization who refuses to break from religious teachings by refusing to marry same sex couples. In fact, Churches have been at the "mercy" of the state in the whole process.

    The government does not recognize marriages that result from church weddings per se. They grant the Priest/Rabbi/Minister authority to take on the role of a legal authority having jurisdiction. That is why someone must get a marriage license before they have a church wedding. Without the license, no wedding, no matter how many "I do's" are involved.
    Actually, there can be a wedding and a marriage, but it won't be recognized by the state, which I think is your point.

    So a state can decide they don't like the stand a church is taking, so it outlaws recognition of any wedding performed in a church. Everyone would have to get married in a civil ceremony presided over by a judge or similar authority. The church part could only be a celebration, or confirmation.

    Far fetched. Probably. But in this punitive time in society where anything goes, perhaps not.
    OK, it is far fetched. For hundreds of years the state hasn't gotten involved in a church's decision to perform a marriage ceremony or not.

  5. #245
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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I don't know how it works anywhere else, but we had a church wedding and applied for the license with the state who checked our qualifications for marriage and issued the actual license. The pastor was granted permission by the state to conduct the ceremony, but he could not issue the license - it had to be approved by some government clerk, after we paid our small fee..
    That's generally the way it works since the time that government decided to intrude on the process and demand government licensing. Again, no reason to be bound by the current when making a better system is the goal.
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

  6. #246
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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    1. Marriage is a contract someone under the age of consent cannot enter into a contract.

    2. The chimp case has nothing to do with anything in regards to this debate. Granting them a hearing for status as "legal persons" does give them any rights that a human enjoys.
    1. Gays couldn't marry either. But, laws have been changed (ignored, overwritten through legislative edict) to force that upon us. The point you refuse to address is, if a girl can make the very adult decision to get an abortion at any age, then why can't she make the very adult decision to get married?

    2. The fact that the ruling was made shows that steps in the wrong direction are being considered. Next time it may go all the way and give them full 'legal person" status. All that's needed is a activist judge to take it all the way. Just like we had with this SSM ruling.
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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    What you're ignoring is the many ways being married or not affects our legal rights and responsibilities. They could open it up and say that 28 year old men can marry 4 year olds....
    Now that's the worst slippery slope argument I have ever heard. In fact it's slippery cliff
    "Small people talk about people, average people talk about events, great people talk about ideas" Eleanor Roosevelt

  8. #248
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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    The comment was that the state would get out of the business and recognize any couple. Obviously the state will regulate marriage, if nothing else to prevent valid marriages between an adult and a toddler or young child.


    Actually, there can be a wedding and a marriage, but it won't be recognized by the state, which I think is your point.



    OK, it is far fetched. For hundreds of years the state hasn't gotten involved in a church's decision to perform a marriage ceremony or not.
    There are Federal protections against the marriage of a toddler. The state could not abridge that.

    Not only can there be a wedding and a marriage, that is actually how it works. There are two steps involved. A church based wedding ceremony is nothing more than an event. The actual marriage is recognized by the state via a license and the function of a state recognized authority having jurisdiction. The state historically has provided that a Minister/Rabbi etc., is allowed to be that authority. That authority could be revoked.

    Of course the state hasn't gotten involved in a church's decision to perform a ceremony, and I doubt it ever would. That's like suggesting it would get involved in a church providing Holy Communion. The ceremony means nothing without the license the state provides, and the approval, witness, and signature of the person conducting the ceremony.

    Unless I was so authorized by the state, any marriage I reside over would not be recognized as valid.
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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    Now that's the worst slippery slope argument I have ever heard. In fact it's slippery cliff
    I was kind of proud of my 28 yr old guy and a horse analogy - and for the gay crowd, it could be a 28 yr old guy and Mr. Ed.
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Firstly, if there are "hundreds of laws that distinguish between a married person and a single person" then those laws are on their face discrimination based on marital status and a State should not be in the business of sanctioning discrimination. Why should a married person have greater or different rights and access than a single person?
    The laws can discriminate. I'm not sure what your point is. The law discriminates against those who obtain consent before sex and rapists, for example. Some of my personal expenses, like real estate taxes, are deductible but I can't deduct new tires for my bike - darn!

    Secondly, if the State is out of the marriage business, you can bet there will be a booming business in attorneys advising and drafting marriage contracts - likely the same attorneys who practice divorce and family law since they're the ones who are intimately knowledgeable about the flaws in the State's marriage contracts.
    That's possible, but the problem is when you, e.g., deal with a creditor, he'll have to look at YOUR contract to see if your wife is liable on the debt if you don't pay. It greases the wheels of commerce on both sides if you just notify the creditor that you're married, and then the creditor looks to well settled state law to know whether your wife has to make good if you skip town. Same with a day care center. Who can make decisions on behalf of the child? If you're married, they have laws that tell them whether mom and/or dad can do that. Otherwise, you have to show them YOUR contract, they pay their lawyer to read it, and determine if that contract allows YOU to,say, approve that child go to the hospital or whatever. Etc............................................... ......................

    Finally, if the State government is out of the marriage business, they wouldn't be contracting any third parties to perform marriages or dissolve marriages or adjudicate disputes - the courts will do that - or in all likelihood, the feds may step in since they and the Supreme Court decided they know best - let them have the mess.
    Sheesh, the courts rule in accordance with state law, and state governments, not free markets, make state law.

    Bottom line is even if this is all possible - free market solves all!! Marriage is a convenience to everyone. It settles a great many questions of legal rights and responsibilities, it's been litigated extensively and so you, your spouse, and other parties to any dispute involving your family have legal certainty based on centuries of settled law. What you're suggesting is they terminate this convenient set up and throw every relationship into legal limbo all because the state doesn't want to marry homosexuals. Or to use that as an excuse. It's insane enough to appeal to republicans but the rest of the world sees it as a no win proposition.

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