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Thread: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays[W:297]

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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Despite the words of four Supreme Court Justices,
    Appeals to authority rarely ever work. Specially not in this case, you have 4 SCOTUS justices on your side, I have 5 who disagreed and a collage of judges all over the country who support them in their decisions.

    you claimed: No, this is not the giant constitutional crisis that homophobes and some of SSM's lip service providers on the right wish it was.
    That remains true in spite of your appeal to authority.

    That's just baseless worthless insulting blather. That's an absolute without anything other than your declaration that it is so. BS. Four Supreme Court Justices beg to differ with your claim.

    Continuing to see a problem with my assertion because 4 justices didn't want to rule in favor of SSM doesn't change the fact that it's not a constitutional crisis.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    You must have me confused for another poster. I never once tried to justify or condone the Texas AG's move. I was proposing honorable ways for State's truly opposed to the Supreme Court ruling to get out from active adherence to it. I've not seen anyone provide a comment that says States must open abortion clinics because the Supreme Court said all women must have access to abortion. So why should States have to issue marriage licenses because the Supreme Court said every couple must have access to marriage?
    I'm not a lawyer so I can't answer the legal question. As a practical matter, I think it's a moot point. Texas just is not going to tell their citizens that they ALL (gay and straight) have to travel to Oklahoma or wherever to get "married."

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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Sometimes I just go with this, and don't worry myself about an issue....

    Matthew 13-24-30
    Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares [weed that looks like wheat] among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I'm not a lawyer so I can't answer the legal question. As a practical matter, I think it's a moot point. Texas just is not going to tell their citizens that they ALL (gay and straight) have to travel to Oklahoma or wherever to get "married."
    They don't have to tell them anything. They can simply say that they will recognize any marriage license or marriage contract. People won't have to leave the State. They can get married in a church and churches can continue to issue licenses/documents vouching for same. They could get married in their lawyer's office - notary public on hand to vouch for the proceeding. Any number of ways. As long as the State removes any State legislation in place around marriage they are then wide open. It would be the best way to proceed, in my view.
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    A State that ceases to issue State paper authorizing marriage isn't violating anyone's constitutional protections and isn't providing discriminatory access to any one group or another - it's simply not in the business any longer. It is not passing any laws prohibiting anyone from getting married.

    The Supreme Court determined there was a constitutional right to abortion. Does that mean that States must establish abortion clinics? No. It simply means that States can't bar abortion clinics from establishing operations within the State. Likewise, the State will not bar the federal government or any entity it wishes to create from establishing marriage parlours or marriage license issuing offices within their State.
    The problem with your argument is the legal principle of animus.

    1. State's don't operate abortion clinics. Abortion clinics are private entities that operate within a state. In contrast, states do issue marriage licenses, so its an apples to oranges comparison.

    2. One of the basic principles of the application of constitutional law in the United States is animus. For example, a state may deny a right through its actions only if there is no animus in its reasons for doing so. If a state denies marriage licenses to everyone in order to avoid issuing licenses to same sex couples, then by definition its actions are based in animus. In this cause, animus towards gays and lesbians. Thus anyway you look at it, its actions would be unconstitutional. You can take it to the bank that as soon as it went before any federal judge, that is exactly how they would see it and their ruling would reflect it.

    The Texas AG certainly knows this, and is just engaging in this as a political stunt.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Appeals to authority rarely ever work. Specially not in this case, you have 4 SCOTUS justices on your side, I have 5 who disagreed and a collage of judges all over the country who support them in their decisions.



    That remains true in spite of your appeal to authority.



    Continuing to see a problem with my assertion because 4 justices didn't want to rule in favor of SSM doesn't change the fact that it's not a constitutional crisis.
    You have no credibility outside of opinion. You made an absolute claim, and continue to do so. Can't help it if facts bother you. Guess you'll just have to deal with it.
    President Donald J Trump, 45th President of the United States of America. A victory born in the hearts and minds of Everyday Americans

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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    They don't have to tell them anything. They can simply say that they will recognize any marriage license or marriage contract. People won't have to leave the State. They can get married in a church and churches can continue to issue licenses/documents vouching for same. They could get married in their lawyer's office - notary public on hand to vouch for the proceeding. Any number of ways. As long as the State removes any State legislation in place around marriage they are then wide open. It would be the best way to proceed, in my view.
    They cannot do this because their actions would be in animus, and thus unconstitutional. This is not even debatable as its a basic legal principle in regards to constitutional law.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I'm not a lawyer so I can't answer the legal question. As a practical matter, I think it's a moot point. Texas just is not going to tell their citizens that they ALL (gay and straight) have to travel to Oklahoma or wherever to get "married."
    The state isn't getting out of marriage and the religious will simply have to deal with what they've asked for. There is nothing in this ruling saying that churches needed to marry anybody. There is nothing in this ruling about anybody's perceived ideals on the sanctity of marriage or how marriage was defined for each religion. However that doesn't seem to be enough. It's what some people have been saying for the longest time: The issue for the religious was having the power to determine whose unions were valid and whose were invalid. Now that they can't, we're headed down the road to damnation and it's a crazy constitutional crisis! It all makes you wonder how most of the developed world has handled these issues.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    The problem with your argument is the legal principle of animus.

    1. State's don't operate abortion clinics. Abortion clinics are private entities that operate within a state. In contrast, states do issue marriage licenses, so its an apples to oranges comparison.

    2. One of the basic principles of the application of constitutional law in the United States is animus. For example, a state may deny a right through its actions only if there is no animus in its reasons for doing so. If a state denies marriage licenses to everyone in order to avoid issuing licenses to same sex couples, then by definition its actions are based in animus. In this cause, animus towards gays and lesbians. Thus anyway you look at it, its actions would be unconstitutional. You can take it to the bank that as soon as it went before any federal judge, that is exactly how they would see it and their ruling would reflect it.

    The Texas AG certainly knows this, and is just engaging in this as a political stunt.
    I understand your point, I'm not buying it, and I'm saying let's test it. There's no animus if a State goes out of the marriage business. If a State removes all legislation related to marriage licenses, the issuance of them, the validity of them, who can perform marriages, etc., it is actually opening up the business of marriage rather than stunting it. It is saying as a government they are letting the free market and private enterprise take over. It's not prohibiting marriage, it's just getting out of the way. How is that a sign of animus?
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

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    Re: Texas AG Says Workers Can Refuse Marriage Licenses to Gays

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    You have no credibility outside of opinion.
    The opinions of 5 SCOTUS Justices! Which 1 post ago, and according to you, were valid proof of some constitutional crisis. A constitutional crisis that I asserted doesn't exist because these matters have been resolved through other issues already! Good grief, if you find I'm wrong at least prove it through something other than appeals to authority! That will at least make you look like you have some sort of argument. However, the reality is that there simply is no constitutional crisis, so this is a non-issue. People will be fired for not doing their jobs, and if the state of Texas allows clerks to deny rights based on religious belief, there will be quite a few lawyers ready to make some money from the lawsuits.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 06-29-15 at 12:39 PM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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