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Thread: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    Any coup would be EU-sponsored, to sideline the democratically elected government of Greece from carrying out it's mandate.
    The EU won't sponsor any coups. Coups are incompatible with the EU's principles.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    If a referendum is held--and I hope the ECB will retain its assistance to Greece's banks until after the results are in--I very much hope that the Greek people will vote for accepting the EU/ECB/IMF terms. Such an outcome would be a rejection of the Tsipiras government's position. The current Greek government intends to campaign against that outcome rather than ask for public support for accepting the unpopular terms.

    In terms of the actual referendum, there are news reports that two technical questions might be involved, not a simple straight-forward vote, meaning that the people would have to accept the EU/ECB/IMF terms in both cases for those terms to be accepted. The wording remains to be seen, but there is risk that the questions might not be transparent given the current government's tactics to date. At the same time, it remains to be seen if the EU/ECB/IMF will keep their terms on offer (I hope they do).
    As far as I understand the agreement they're being asked to vote on hasn't even been translated to Greek yet. I've come to the conclusion the referendum is ridiculous though the democracy part sounds nice on the surface. The people, as yet, don't have transparent access to the details and even the troika were accommodating to a No vote, how exactly would a compromise be reached if a referendum is hypothetically required for accepting each proposal?

    Regardless, Syriza has buried themselves. They deferred the issue to a public they supposedly had a mandate to make decisions on behalf of. Yes or No, they'll be a dead entity within the next few years.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The Nazi extortion was wrong. A payment was made in 1960 for damages. .

    funnily enough, the London Agreement was in 1953.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    It's obvious that the hard right lunatic fascist argument from ignorance is being well brayed. Syriza didn't exist and had no part of being given the illegal loans. They were elected to end austerity. They are unable to achieve that, so have returned to their electorate to call for judgement on their work so far, and what should be done. They are under attack in Greece from actual communists for giving the Troika too much!
    " Illegal loans " ??

    Well, distributing Billions in worthless securities while misrepresenting your Nations fiscal position might sound illegal, and a case could even be made to make it illegal, but I don't think Greece technically broke any laws.

    And electing someone to " end " what were and are just the consequences of unsustainable deficit spending was a huge mistake.

    There is nothing anyone, let alone some radical left wing activist like Syrzia could have done to " end " austerity.

    You don't solve a soverign debt crisis with more debt.

    What this issue has done is really expose the falacies of the narrative that Countires should and could spend their way into prosperity..

    Its also exposed.....again... just how prone to corruption, mismanagement and debt Socialist Governments are.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    It's obvious that the hard right lunatic fascist argument from ignorance is being well brayed. Syriza didn't exist and had no part of being given the illegal loans. They were elected to end austerity. They are unable to achieve that, so have returned to their electorate to call for judgement on their work so far, and what should be done. They are under attack in Greece from actual communists for giving the Troika too much!
    Tsipras engaged in wholly irresponsible demagoguery to win office and has now been cornered by his own rhetoric. His problem is of his own making.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    From Reuters:

    A majority of Greeks favor accepting a bailout deal with international lenders, according to two opinion polls conducted before Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras announced a surprise referendum on the issue.

    The survey by the Alco polling institute published in Sunday's edition of the Proto Thema newspaper, said 57 percent of 1,000 respondents were in favor of reaching a deal, while 29 percent wanted a break with creditors.
    Greek opinion poll shows 57 percent favor deal with lenders | Reuters

    That Tsipiras government has attempted to blow up the possibility of Greece's remaining within the Euro Zone coupled with these new polling results indicates that the current Greek government is acting in a fashion that is inconsistent with the will of Greece's people. Instead, it is likely pursuing an ideologically-rigid course and focusing on its much narrower base constituency, with little regard for the people's sentiments. And it's doing so in a fashion where it seeks to evade responsibility for its choices.

    Typically, such large gaps between a government's, which is pursuing its own interests, and the differing public's interests are unsustainable in democratic societies. Therefore, it is probable that the current government will be defeated in a future election, unless it changes its approach. Of course, before that happens, it could inflict excessive additional pain on Greece's economy and its people.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Au contraire. Tsipras has given the voters time to get their money out of the banks before the default. I have assumed the default a fait accompli since he was elected. His job is to represent the electorate, not the financial health of the Big Banks or the EU. If the citizens can get what money they have out of the banks before the collapse, they will preserve a small amount of solvency while the economy takes several years recovering. The IMF and the EU keep mouthing austerity, just like in Ukraine. How's that working in Ukraine?
    * Sigh *....

    Is anyone responsible for their actions in left la la land ?

    Or is it always the " eeebil " Banks fault ?

    " Austerity " is the consequence and in Greece's situation it was unavoidable.
    Last edited by Fenton; 06-27-15 at 04:26 PM.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    The EU/IMF have been pushing the idea that Tsipras has been behaving waywardly, not negotiating in the best interests of the Greek people and not being serious about market reforms. That's simply propaganda. The package that the Greek government has proposed is austere, probably too austere for the Greek public to accept, because Tsipras and Varoufakis have gone so far towards giving the lenders what they are demanding. There doesn't appear to be any substantive basis on which the EU/ECB/IMF negotiators should reject the Greek proposal. It strikes me, and I suspect Tsipras, that they aren't serious about negotiating a deal that the Greek people can accept. They are offering no debt relief, only more austerity, for a people who have had nothing else for the past 8 years.

    Trying to present the stalemate as coming from the Greek side pushing a radical left-wing agenda is playing politics. Tsipras is rightly calling their bluff and demonstrating that they are not out of touch with the position their people hold. I'd say the EU/ECB/IMF position is one that is promoting a Grexit. They want Greece out of the Eurozone (and thereby out of the EU) and have not been negotiating in good faith.

    It's rather ironic that the use of a referendum on a single, albeit major, issue is being portrayed as a lack of leadership when everyone on the right has been applauding the UK Tories' EU-exit referendum plans, the consequences of which are considerably more complicated, difficult to explain and debate than the Greek government's negotiating position. That's a red herring if ever I saw one!
    The Greeks put themselves in this situation all by themselves. There is a difference between a deliberate referendum on a subject of prolonged public debate, as in the UK, and a hasty-expedient referendum called by a cowardly government grasping at straws to avoid the consequences of its own demagoguery, as in Greece.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Reality intrudes. Austerity is discredited.

    " Greece will hold a referendum on July 5 on whether the country should accept the bailout offer of international creditors. The government’s decision to reject what was on offer and call the referendum is ultimately an attempt to take charge of its domestic policy and reaffirm its credibility with voters.

    Although Greece is hard strapped for cash this is clearly a political decision with profound consequences for the future of the European Union. It is also the right one.

    This is not merely useful as a negotiating tactic for obtaining a better deal with its creditors, as many commentators might suggest. The coalition of the left, Syriza, had no choice but to oppose further measures that would lock its economy into a deflationary spiral, the trappings of which are destroying Greek society.

    The Greek position

    Elected with the mandate to end the savage austerity policies already imposed, Syriza could hardly accept the further cuts demanded. These include cuts in income support for pensioners below the poverty line and a VAT hike of up to 23% on food staples. Even more onerous was the demand that Greece should deliver a sustained primary budget surplus of 1% for 2016, gradually increasing to 3.5% in the following years when its economy has already been contracting for six years.

    By most counts the austerity policies imposed by Greece’s creditors in 2010 in exchange for the bailout money (of €240 billion) have been an abject economic and moral failure. The International Monetary Fund itself has acknowledged “a notable failure” in managing the terms of the first Greek bailout, in setting overly optimistic expectations for the country’s economy and underestimating the effects of the austerity measures it imposed. ... "

    https://theconversation.com/now-the-...ght-move-43974
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    From CNBC:

    Reuters just flashed this:

    GREEK OPPOSITION LEADER SAMARAS TO MEET GREEK PRESIDENT ON SUNDAY


    I am not sure what will be discussed, but if the President and Opposition will move to replace the Tsipiras government within Greece's constitutional framework, that would be a constructive step.
    That couldn't be done within the constitutional framework whereby the government voted in governs. Oh, you mean stage a coup d'état. I'm sure the Troika would lap that up.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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