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Thread: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by mmi View Post
    How do you feel about the call for consideration of the extortion? This is an obligation that even the Nazis acknowledged. Was that criminal regime more "responsible" than the current German government?
    The Nazi extortion was wrong. A payment was made in 1960 for damages. If Greece believes that payment isn't appropriate, the International Court of Justice is the appropriate forum for addressing its claim, as Germany believes all claims have been resolved. That's an entirely different matter from the current Greek government's lack of serious negotiating strategy that has now left the country on the brink of leaving the Euro Zone and perhaps against the wishes of Greece's people. Apparently there was a poll last week in which 57% of Greeks favored remaining within the Euro Zone even if Greece fully met all of the creditors' requirements.

    What the current Greek government has done isn't necessarily criminal. It is an astonishing abdication of leadership responsibility with disregard for the consequences of that abdication.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Apparently there was a poll last week in which 57% of Greeks favored remaining within the Euro Zone even if Greece fully met all of the creditors' requirements.
    Then we can hope that the referendum passes, strengthening the government's hand in making decisions that some will protest in the streets, no?
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    That doesn't sound good at all. This could get really ugly.
    I highly doubt that any kind of "coup" would occur, especially as a coup would further estrange Greece from the European Union. There might be efforts to see if a new coalition can be formed or a new election brought about. The current government's abdication of leadership has pushed Greece onto the brink of a grave national crisis and I'm sure the opposition and other responsible political leaders are trying to see if they can avoid the Tsipiras government's catastrophe. Nothing may come of the talks, but at least some are trying to avert catastrophe.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by mmi View Post
    Then we can hope that the referendum passes, strengthening the government's hand in making decisions that some will protest in the streets, no?

    If a referendum is held--and I hope the ECB will retain its assistance to Greece's banks until after the results are in--I very much hope that the Greek people will vote for accepting the EU/ECB/IMF terms. Such an outcome would be a rejection of the Tsipiras government's position. The current Greek government intends to campaign against that outcome rather than ask for public support for accepting the unpopular terms.

    In terms of the actual referendum, there are news reports that two technical questions might be involved, not a simple straight-forward vote, meaning that the people would have to accept the EU/ECB/IMF terms in both cases for those terms to be accepted. The wording remains to be seen, but there is risk that the questions might not be transparent given the current government's tactics to date. At the same time, it remains to be seen if the EU/ECB/IMF will keep their terms on offer (I hope they do).

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I very much hope that the Greek people will vote for accepting the EU/ECB/IMF terms. Such an outcome would be a rejection of the Tsipiras government's position.
    If the government opposes the deal, why not just reject it and leave it that? I figure you'll say they're looking for "cover." I think they're looking for support to accept the deal, while at the same time keeping those who are angry about the damage caused by austerity from pulling their support for the government.

    >>The current Greek government intends to campaign against that outcome rather than ask for public support for accepting the unpopular terms.

    I think you underestimate them. I think they're in a very difficult position that they're trying to finesse, not cynically for their own political interest, but in furtherance of the interest of the Greek people.
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by mmi View Post
    I think they're in a very difficult position that they're trying to finesse, not cynically for their own political interest, but in furtherance of the interest of the Greek people.
    The time for finessing the gaps was much earlier, not now. I don't doubt that the government believes it is working in the interests of the Greek people, but it's difficult to envision how a potential banking system collapse, capital controls, and possible exit from the Euro Zone is in the interests of the Greek people. Leadership isn't always easy, but choosing avoidable catastrophe over a challenging fiscal and structural consolidation is not an act of leadership. Asking the people to ratify that fully avoidable outcome is even worse.

    It appears, barring some modest extension under the cover of an implementation transition, the ECB's emergency support could be pulled from Greece's banking system.

    Ministerial statement on 27 June 2015 - Consilium

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The time for finessing the gaps was much earlier, not now.
    I disagree. I think they've been doing it all along and need to continue.

    >>it's difficult to envision how a potential banking system collapse, capital controls, and possible exit from the Euro Zone is in the interests of the Greek people.

    It's not, and the government agrees.

    >>Leadership isn't always easy, but choosing avoidable catastrophe over a challenging fiscal and structural consolidation is not an act of leadership.

    That is not the government's choice.

    >>Asking the people to ratify that fully avoidable outcome is even worse.

    They need to maintain their support within the country so that a positive outcome can be achieved. How hard will they push for a "no" vote?

    >>some modest extension under the cover of an implementation transition

    I expect just that.
    "I loved him. You loved him. What good have we done him? Love. Look at yourself. They have a name for faces like that." Anna Schmidt, in The Third Man Anna walks away

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Democracy ??

    Lol !! Tsipras was elected.

    Right ?

    Voters chose him to lead their Nation and that would include making tough choices and then taking responsibility for the consequences of those choices.

    But then again, what does a hard left lunatic socialist know about " responsiblity "

    Nada. Tsipras admires people like Che Guevara. Hell, he named his second som after Guevaram, nothing he does surprises me.

    This decision by Tsipras to offload his responsibility on his citizens shouldn't surprise anyone really.

    And your defense of Tsipras isn't surprising either.

    Tsipras is going to call for a referendum NOT in the spirit and interest of Democracy.

    He's doing it so he can tell the Greek population that they're responsible for the inevitable consequences that are going to come with a Greek default

    He can tell them " dont blame me, you voted for this "

    Lol...what a low life.
    It's obvious that the hard right lunatic fascist argument from ignorance is being well brayed. Syriza didn't exist and had no part of being given the illegal loans. They were elected to end austerity. They are unable to achieve that, so have returned to their electorate to call for judgement on their work so far, and what should be done. They are under attack in Greece from actual communists for giving the Troika too much!
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I highly doubt that any kind of "coup" would occur, especially as a coup would further estrange Greece from the European Union. There might be efforts to see if a new coalition can be formed or a new election brought about. The current government's abdication of leadership has pushed Greece onto the brink of a grave national crisis and I'm sure the opposition and other responsible political leaders are trying to see if they can avoid the Tsipiras government's catastrophe. Nothing may come of the talks, but at least some are trying to avert catastrophe.
    Any coup would be EU-sponsored, to sideline the democratically elected government of Greece from carrying out it's mandate.
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    From Reuters:



    Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock | Reuters

    Leadership requires difficult choices at times. Unfortunately, the Greek Prime Minister decided to punt on his leadership responsibilities by delegating what is a grave decision to the general public, who almost surely lack the details related to Greece's fiscal situation, the EU/ECB/IMF offer, and understanding of the consequences involved. At the same time, he has shown little urgency with the scheduling, as the Greek Parliament would meet to discuss a referendum to be held on July 5, which is after the June 30 deadline for Greece's IMF payment.

    Even if the Greek Prime Minister believes his punt will give him absolution from the consequences should Greece wind up in arrears to the IMF, it won't. His inability to lead lends further explanation to the chaotic path he has taken over the past several months, which has eroded Greece's small leverage, undermined the good faith others had, and imposed the Greek people to a deepening economic contraction and banking system risks. At a time when Greece needs a leader, it has a Prime Minister who lacks leadership capacity. This only compounds Greece's already terrible situation.
    Au contraire. Tsipras has given the voters time to get their money out of the banks before the default. I have assumed the default a fait accompli since he was elected. His job is to represent the electorate, not the financial health of the Big Banks or the EU. If the citizens can get what money they have out of the banks before the collapse, they will preserve a small amount of solvency while the economy takes several years recovering. The IMF and the EU keep mouthing austerity, just like in Ukraine. How's that working in Ukraine?

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