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Thread: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

  1. #311
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    While Stiglitz makes some fair points, it should also be noted that the Greek economy had actually resumed growth during 2014.

    Greek Economy Returns to Growth - WSJ
    Requires subscription, couldn't read.

    It's relevant to point out that that blip in 2014 had returned to the red by the time Syriza won the election.

    Greece GDP Growth Rate | 1995-2015 | Data | Chart | Calendar | Forecast

    Following its election, the Tsipiras government abandoned reforms,
    No, it didn't. It presented a document outlining its commitment to reforms in February. The Eurogroup welcomed those proposals, but then rejected them. That's not 'abandoning reform'.

    suffocating it with its choice to expose Greece to capital controls and pension rationing,
    It was the Troika's decision to suspend ELA, not Greece's. I suspect it did so to pressurise the Greek people into voting for their austerity package tomorrow.

    Not too surprisingly, all of Greece's newspapers are also urging a "Yes" vote tomorrow.
    Yes, unsurprising that the three newspapers your link refers to would urge that. The Greek oligarchy has always controlled traditional media. They supported the authoritarian measures of the Troika's favoured Samaras government, Syriza's opponents in the January election and are now cheer-leading for a return to austerity and authoritarianism. The Samaras government was the most repressive regime Greece had seen since the Colonels and went so far as to close down the national public broadcaster for failing to toe the government's political strategy.

    The Resurgence of Authoritarianism in Economically Beleaguered Greece: The Shaping of a Proto-Fascist State
    But Syriza have overcome overwhelming traditional media opposition before.
    https://commonspace.scot/articles/10...e-project-fear

    Never the less, it is incorrect to claim that ALL Greek newspapers are urging a yes vote. Simply untrue.

    Grexit referendum: how Greek papers want their readers to vote | Grexit News | The Week UK
    Last edited by Andalublue; 07-04-15 at 09:17 AM.
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Today, NBC News reported:

    "What they're doing with Greece has a name: terrorism," said Varoufakis. "Why have they forced us to close the banks? To frighten people. And when it's about spreading terror, that is known as terrorism."

    Greece Finance Minister Varoufakis Accuses Creditors of 'Terrorism' Ahead of Referendum - NBC News

    The better analogy would be that the Tsipiras government is acting in the fashion as a suicide bomber in blowing up the negotiations and inflicting on Greece's people the current financial system restrictions, all because the EU/ECB/IMF did not capitulate to Syriza's maximum demands.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Today, NBC News reported:

    "What they're doing with Greece has a name: terrorism," said Varoufakis. "Why have they forced us to close the banks? To frighten people. And when it's about spreading terror, that is known as terrorism."

    Greece Finance Minister Varoufakis Accuses Creditors of 'Terrorism' Ahead of Referendum - NBC News

    The better analogy would be that the Tsipiras government is acting in the fashion as a suicide bomber in blowing up the negotiations and inflicting on Greece's people the current financial system restrictions, all because the EU/ECB/IMF did not capitulate to Syriza's maximum demands.
    I see you approve of apocalyptic rhetoric. I'm surprised.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Requires subscription, couldn't read.
    I forgot that it requires a subscription, as I have one, so the whole article is displayed for me. The point was that Greece's economy resumed growth.

    No, it didn't. It presented a document outlining its commitment to reforms in February. The Eurogroup welcomed those proposals, but then rejected them. That's not 'abandoning reform'.
    The Tsipiras government has said a lot and done little. The IMF's debt sustainability analysis report revealed that Greece had seen a "substantial weakening in the delivery of structural reforms and in the reform commitments" (http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/...15/cr15165.pdf, p.5/p.6 of the .pdf).

    It was the Troika's decision to suspend ELA, not Greece's. I suspect it did so to pressurise the Greek people into voting for their austerity package tomorrow.
    The package was capped because the Tsipiras government walked away from the discussions. The ECB has rules and the Greek government is fully aware of its rules. It knew that walking away from the talks would endanger the ELA financing, which has surpassed 60% of Greece's GDP. It still did so. All responsibility for the current situation rests squarely with the current Greek government.

    Never the less, it is incorrect to claim that ALL Greek newspapers are urging a yes vote. Simply untrue.
    I meant all of its major newspapers as per the linked article which cites "leading" newspapers. There are some smaller media outlets that are backing the "No" campaign.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I see you approve of apocalyptic rhetoric. I'm surprised.
    I don't. The Greek Finance Minister used such hyperbole. I merely commented that his analogy was misplaced and provided a more accurate one. There is no "terrorism" of any kind involved. There is terrible decision making by the current Greek government and, to a much lesser extent, the Troika. Just as the current government attempted to evade leadership responsibility by throwing the choice to Greece's people, it is trying to gain a "No" vote using hyperbole that has nothing to do with what is actually taking place.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I don't. The Greek Finance Minister used such hyperbole. I merely commented that his analogy was misplaced and provided a more accurate one. There is no "terrorism" of any kind involved. There is terrible decision making by the current Greek government and, to a much lesser extent, the Troika. Just as the current government attempted to evade leadership responsibility by throwing the choice to Greece's people, it is trying to gain a "No" vote using hyperbole that has nothing to do with what is actually taking place.
    I think you're right that Varoufakis rhetoric was too hyperbolic, but I think passions are running particularly high this weekend. See the hyperbolic rhetoric in those newspapers you quoted.

    "A “no” vote on Sunday will turn Greece into a banana republic" - Ekathimerini

    Responding to that hyperbole with more of your own suggests that the form doesn't bother you so much as the analysis.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    One point in the article is especially virulent and aggressive in the Euroland handling of the Greek mess. It is demonstrating a degree of moral bankruptcy to its population that is dangerous in legitimacy based systems.
    The Greeks aren't Snow White by any means. But the article still makes valid points on the EU's side of things.
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    The Greeks aren't Snow White by any means. But the article still makes valid points on the EU's side of things.
    No question that the Greeks as a society managed to make so very much less out of the chance they that it is very sad. It is not the recent government, though, that are most responsible. They did quite a good job, really and have made Europeans look at the state of their union, or at least made it much more difficult for the Eurocrats to hide it.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    No question that the Greeks as a society managed to make so very much less out of the chance they that it is very sad. It is not the recent government, though, that are most responsible. They did quite a good job, really and have made Europeans look at the state of their union, or at least made it much more difficult for the Eurocrats to hide it.
    That's the first post of yours I've been able to like in a long time.

    I liked it for two reasons:

    1. I totally agree that the Greek economy has been run like a Madoff Ponzi scheme since...well, forever. Politicians of the centre-left and centre-right have treated the public purse as their own piggy-bank and the corporate banking sector has basically destroyed the nation.

    2. Syriza has been in power for 5 months, has not done anything to increase the debt or unemployment, only tried to grapple with internal restructuring while being gang-raped by Merkel, LaGarde, Juncker and Draghi. Yet to listen to our right-wing cheerleaders you'd think that the Brussels stooge and fraudster Samaras was the soul of probity and that Tsipras had spent every last one of the $400 billion of Greek banking's accumulated debt, that Greek welfare recipients were living in some feather-bed utopia and that Greek public employees could basically retire on full pay about 6 months after they got their first job.

    They've certainly played a very forceful and occasionally ham-fisted job of negotiating with the Troika, but given the dysfunctionality of those three bodies, who could have handled it better?
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Who said it was? That's the opposite of what I said. I'll put that down to English not being your first language. No biggie.
    You hinted that in post 274. I even quoted you so it is just a matter of clicking.

    On another note, the demeaning, arrogant, ad hominem losers' response is really downgrading the debate as well as the conversation. Let me warn you here that you are very short from being ignored.
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    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
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