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Thread: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Chagos View Post
    Well, maybe getting a bit OT by now but it was never a Greek empire. Of course it's a matter of what parameters one applies but culture alone won't cut it.

    Quite apart from which its official language remained Latin until well into the 7th century when Herakleios (who DDD mentions) began "grecianizing" it.

    There had been no independent entity "Greece" since heck knows when, if indeed there ever had been one at all. So no Greek empire could have arisen (Even under Alexander it was the Macedon empire).

    Constantine didn't found a Greek empire, he took power over all of Rome and then made administrative changes, one of them consisting of building a new residence at Byzantium (a town). His place of birth had nothing to do with anything that would have made him un-Roman, certainly as little as Hadrian's Spanish descent would have made his rule Spanish.

    That Greek was spoken thruout the Roman empire and its culture heavily influenced any Roman (and not just those) made Rome as little Greek as the US is English. That goes for what became known as Eastern Rome (with the "Western" decline) as well.

    Indeed Roman armies re-captured a lot of the land that the "barbarians" had vested from what is now the Italian peninsula. That they came from the East got nobody calling them Greek armies.
    I suppose the distinctive Greek feature was the Orthodox church.
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    I suppose the distinctive Greek feature was the Orthodox church.
    Hmmm.......in the time span I cite, even the official Church language was Latin in Byzantium. And even "grecianization" didn't occur overnight, neither to the churches nor the society as whole.

    Basically there had been internal ecclesiastically strife over all sorts of issues for some time with Rome (the Holy See) claiming superiority and Byzantium demanding the same.

    They began closing each others' churches early in the 11th century where they could. There were "Easterns" in Southern Italy and "Westerns" in Byzantium, and from thereon things went South.

    Such things as disagreement over the origin or source of the Holy Spirit and whether leavened or unleavened bread should be used in the Eucharist were cited but one may reasonably assume the main issue having been one of who gets to rule everybody, including the others.

    That's what it always is about.

    Ever since Roman Catholics are "Latins" in Greece and not always without a sneer.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Chagos View Post
    Hmmm.......in the time span I cite, even the official Church language was Latin in Byzantium. And even "grecianization" didn't occur overnight, neither to the churches nor the society as whole.

    Basically there had been internal ecclesiastically strife over all sorts of issues for some time with Rome (the Holy See) claiming superiority and Byzantium demanding the same.

    They began closing each others' churches early in the 11th century where they could. There were "Easterns" in Southern Italy and "Westerns" in Byzantium, and from thereon things went South.

    Such things as disagreement over the origin or source of the Holy Spirit and whether leavened or unleavened bread should be used in the Eucharist were cited but one may reasonably assume the main issue having been one of who gets to rule everybody, including the others.

    That's what it always is about.

    Ever since Roman Catholics are "Latins" in Greece and not always without a sneer.
    Caesaropapist control of the patriarchs began in the fourth century, as I recall. That had to make a difference.
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Caesaropapist control of the patriarchs began in the fourth century, as I recall. That had to make a difference.
    Well, basically with Constantine and extending thruout the Roman empire where it (he) held power. But actual dominance over the church by the "secular" ruler not until Justinian around 200 years later.

    Extending to the "western" church, once Eastern Roman armies threw the Goths back out and regained control (of Italy).

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    So to summarize:

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Byzantines? The Greek empire ruined themselves?
    It seems the previous position was that the Byzantine empire was a Greek Empire. I held a different position that it was not a Greek Empire, though Greeks were one of the Byzantines inhabitants, that took over after Foca fell, and maintained power at the demise of the rest of the population by cooperating with Slavs. On this previous post you challenge the position while asserting that the Byzantine Empire was entirely Greek and that I was ignorant to think otherwise (in post 274) and that I should read history by reading Weak-O-Pedia (in post 268).

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Okay, so you think the Byzantine Empire wasn't Greek, and began 3 centuries after it was created by Constantine the Great in 330CE.
    So the question rises: How can the Byzantine empire be an entirely Greek Empire if its ruler and creator Constantine the Great was Dardanian, Illirian (not Greek) according to your own claim below?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Born in York to Thracian-Illyrian parents.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Chagos View Post
    Well, basically with Constantine and extending thruout the Roman empire where it (he) held power. But actual dominance over the church by the "secular" ruler not until Justinian around 200 years later.

    Extending to the "western" church, once Eastern Roman armies threw the Goths back out and regained control (of Italy).
    Speaking of which, Justinian was not Greek neither. He too is of Dardanian descent.

    But the point is, the Greeks were not cooperative with the Romans (perhaps we should not blame them there), they betrayed their own people and cooperated with the Slavs to maintain ever decreasing control of remaining Byzantines until its total demise from the Ottoman Empire. They did not cooperate with the Ottoman Empire and got their independence with our help and would later not acknowledge it (Albanians are discriminated in Greece).

    Next stop, ruining the EU.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    So the question rises: How can the Byzantine empire be an entirely Greek Empire if its ruler and creator Constantine the Great was Dardanian, Illirian (not Greek) according to your own claim below?
    Who said it was? That's the opposite of what I said. I'll put that down to English not being your first language. No biggie.
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    This is a real head-in-the-sand diversionary argument. You believe Greece should concede to the continuation of a set of policies that has already increased Greece's debt burden from 110% of GDP to 170%. The IMF admits that the policies the Troika are insisting on will not work, yet Syriza are accused of having an unrealistic position.

    It really beggars belief.

    The Greek Prime Minister has adopted a delusional course. There was always a two-step process: Step 1: Immediate financing in exchange for necessary reforms; Step 2: Debt relief.

    Had the Greek Prime Minister acted early to agree to the need for immediate financing back in February or March, discussions could have been well underway on the debt relief angle. Instead, he squandered time and ultimately ran out negotiations to the deadline, finally blowing them up with his referendum call. He acted in bad faith and poisoned negotiations.

    Almost certainly, a fresh leader would gain more generous terms than the current one will. Destruction of trust has costs and the Tsipiras government has taken an approach that has inflicted added costs.

    The best immediate outcome would be a "Yes" vote in the referendum, a quick resignation of the current government, and then a new government's being elected and adopting the reform package. Afterward, the EU/ECB/IMF should be as generous as possible with the new government when it comes to debt relief talks.

    Very likely, Tsipiras would resent such generosity when he could not obtain such terms. But it was his self-destructive approach that deprived him of such a chance and inflicted on Greece's people the needless suffering from capital controls and pension rationing from his actions.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The Greek Prime Minister has adopted a delusional course. There was always a two-step process: Step 1: Immediate financing in exchange for necessary reforms; Step 2: Debt relief.
    You know that's not true. The Troika have repeatedly and consistently refused to talk about debt relief. The IMF have just mentioned it now, I suspect as a way to undermine the no vote. It has never been on the table as Step 2, 3 or 99.


    Almost certainly, a fresh leader would gain more generous terms than the current one will.
    That is for purely political reasons, supporting Brussels failed place-men, Samaras et al.

    Destruction of trust has costs and the Tsipiras government has taken an approach that has inflicted added costs.
    Trust has to operate both ways or it isn't trust. The Troika have shown themselves to be consistently untrustworthy.

    The best immediate outcome would be a "Yes" vote in the referendum, a quick resignation of the current government, and then a new government's being elected and adopting the reform package.
    The yes vote might win, Tsipras and Syriza would call new elections, but I suspect they would win them even more handsomely. Where would that leave us?

    Afterward, the EU/ECB/IMF should be as generous as possible with the new government when it comes to debt relief talks.
    In order to do that they'd have to offer terms that they've specifically ruled out and which would have been accepted had they been offered, thereby confirming the suspicion that this entire crisis has been manufactured by the Troika in order to effect regime change.

    A classic bloodless coup is under way. Let's hope it doesn't succeed.
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    You know that's not true. The Troika have repeatedly and consistently refused to talk about debt relief.
    The Troika only rejected immediate debt relief, not debt relief in principle. From The Guardian:

    Some form of debt restructuring would be promised to Athens in the future, but it would come with strings attached and not as part of the current bailout package, they said.

    Creditors offer Greece six-month bailout reprieve as Tsipras weighs response | World news | The Guardian

    That is for purely political reasons, supporting Brussels failed place-men, Samaras et al.
    The former Prime Minister may not have been an outstanding leader, but compared to the current Prime Minister he would be a vastly superior choice. It is highly unlikely that he would have blown up the negotiations as Tsipiras did.

    Trust has to operate both ways or it isn't trust. The Troika have shown themselves to be consistently untrustworthy.
    I disagree. They worked to conclude a deal. They did not walk out. They didn't punt on their responsibilities.

    The yes vote might win, Tsipras and Syriza would call new elections, but I suspect they would win them even more handsomely. Where would that leave us?
    That's always possible. I was alluding to what I thought would be the best-case outcome. The opposition should make the referendum and any election a mandate on remaining within the Euro Zone and tie the Tsipiras government and Syriza to seeking a backdoor exit.

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