Page 29 of 33 FirstFirst ... 192728293031 ... LastLast
Results 281 to 290 of 321

Thread: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

  1. #281
    Global Moderator
    Old stary eyes
    Andalublue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Granada, España
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:27 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    23,678

    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The current Greek government deliberately provoked a liquidity and possibly solvency crisis in its banking system. The capital controls and pension rationing were completely avoidable and unnecessary had the government acted with a view of Greece's larger interests, not Syriza's narrower ones.

    The European Union needs to communicate forcefully to the Greek people that the referendum has implications for Greece's Euro Zone viability. While Europe almost certainly won't attempt to expel Greece, something Tsipiras would probably prefer rather than his having to make a choice, a Greek rejection could prolong the capital controls as the self-inflicted liquidity crisis intensifies. It could also lead to the ECB's withdrawing part of its emergency liquidity assistance, triggering a solvency crisis.

    On the debt issue, the matter is more complex. To the extent that the Tsipiras government has created the liquidity crisis and to the extent that situation undercuts macroeconomic activity, Greece's debt burden relative to its economy will increase. So, even if it doesn't increase in absolute terms, a relative increase would occur.
    This is a real head-in-the-sand diversionary argument. You believe Greece should concede to the continuation of a set of policies that has already increased Greece's debt burden from 110% of GDP to 170%. The IMF admits that the policies the Troika are insisting on will not work, yet Syriza are accused of having an unrealistic position.

    It really beggars belief.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  2. #282
    Guru
    mmi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    is everything
    Last Seen
    12-05-16 @ 10:58 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    4,637

    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by SlevinKelevra View Post
    uhhh, what?
    An off-topic side conversation. Sorry.
    "I loved him. You loved him. What good have we done him? Love. Look at yourself. They have a name for faces like that." — Anna Schmidt, in The Third Man ……Anna walks away

  3. #283
    Sage
    Infinite Chaos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:44 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    13,659

    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Uhm, Greece NEVER qualified under the Maastricht rules on deficit spending.

    They weren't persuaded or influenced after watching others spend, Greece is a Country not a child.

    They were spending beyond their means prior to entering into the Union amd they never stopped until their debt was downgraded.

    Greece Caught Underreporting Its Budget Deficit By Nearly 50% | Zero Hedge
    Will be back to this - I don't disagree but I disagree your putting all blame on the Greeks and ignoring the role the EU and the main Eurozone powers had in allowing Greece to join the Euro.

    How 'magic' made Greek debt disappear before it joined the euro - BBC News
    Find Corrie McKeague, missing RAF serviceman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Breibart journo Milo Yiannopoulos (this is ironic because "race realists" exist)
    "The real racists… are very serious, are deep into studies and data attempting to prove that some races are smarter than other races - they're really dorky." Link.

  4. #284
    Guru
    mmi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    is everything
    Last Seen
    12-05-16 @ 10:58 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    4,637

    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by mmi View Post
    An off-topic side conversation. Sorry.
    Just to clear up any confusion caused by my confusion, I thought Mr. Grimm was telling me what he's wrong about. I didn't realize you were doing it for him.
    "I loved him. You loved him. What good have we done him? Love. Look at yourself. They have a name for faces like that." — Anna Schmidt, in The Third Man ……Anna walks away

  5. #285
    Sage
    DDD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Republic of Dardania
    Last Seen
    11-18-16 @ 01:43 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    12,149

    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Born in York to Thracian-Illyrian parents. Saying he's 'Dardanian' is like claiming Jesus was Israeli or Hannibal was Tunisian, only even more stupid since there's no such country as Dardania.
    Illiria had many tribes.

    Which source are you alluding to? Might it have details as to which tribe of Illiria Constantine the Great came from?

    Further Dardania existed back then, and it exists today too.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

  6. #286
    Sage
    Chagos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    in expatria
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:57 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    9,127

    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Strange response. You say 'you can't compare the EU and the US', and then you do just that, quite accurately. Compare means to note the similarities and dissimilarities between two things.

    The discussion I referred to made those same points, demonstrating two relevant aspects of this situation: a)the lack of solidarity within the EU leadership that belies their claims that we are a community of nations. An attitude within a community, as within a federal nation, is to support its weakest members. The attitude the EU and ECB are showing is that of a transaction between supplier and client. And b) the fundamental design flaw of the Eurozone - i.e that a common currency requires political and fiscal harmonisation, otherwise is operates solely as a market of unequal players, as we can plainly see.
    Seems we're talking past each other.

    I have no dissent to all of what you say above, the salient point remains that to put the EU into a status that resembles the "sovereignty" that allows financial transfers (within) like in the US (or Germany or Spain or UK), it needs to be taken there.

    As things stand, any further transfers from the donors to to any recipient state have to pass national parliaments in most states. As 5 years ago. In Germany alone any such notion or motion would currently fail. And not just in Germany.

    As to your opening (2nd) sentence, you know fully well what is meant when two disparate entities are deemed not to be comparable. Semantic sophistry doesn't get one around that.

  7. #287
    Guru
    Ben K.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:35 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,708

    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Mark Mazower on point. One can finally see it crystallise that Greece is now led by would be global revolutionaries who came into power too suddenly. When I saw Tsipras, as one of his first orders of business as PM, start writing op-eds for national newspapers of various European countries it should have been more apparent what was going on. What's the quote again, "campaign in poetry, govern in prose"? He never made that transition.

    What Mr. Tsipras has fundamentally disregarded is Greece’s extreme weakness. On the one hand, it is weak like any small country, with limited capacity to affect the rules of international life. But it has the additional weakness of a poorly functioning economy and a crushing debt.

    Syriza’s response to this has been schizophrenic. It likes to highlight the country’s vulnerability by castigating powerful offstage villains — domestic oligarchs, international bankers and Germany, too. (Once upon a time, the United States topped that list, but it is mentioned less these days.)

    But at the same time, the party evokes the potential strength of unfettered people power; the leap to genuine sovereignty to be made by leading a worldwide revolution against austerity. And, failing that, in a phrase heard more and more the past few months in Athens, there is talk of a kind of collective suicide, like those Greeks who blew themselves up rather than surrendering to Turkish forces two centuries ago.

    This rhetoric didn’t appear out of thin air. It bears the marks of the milieu that formed Mr. Tsipras as he grew up in the years after Greece’s seven-year military dictatorship ended in 1974. A student culture flourished in the following decades that placed a premium on activism, and saw a revolutionary potential in every high school occupation.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/02/op...eece.html?_r=0
    Last edited by Ben K.; 07-01-15 at 03:28 PM.

  8. #288
    Sage
    Chagos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    in expatria
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:57 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    9,127

    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Okay, so you think the Byzantine Empire wasn't Greek, and began 3 centuries after it was created by Constantine the Great in 330CE. Fine. I'll leave you to your ignorance.
    Contemporaries of the times never referred to it as Byzantine Empire, moder historians have taken that tack.

    FWIW it defined itself as Roman (later East Roman).

    Basically a formation compiling Roman state form, Greek culture and Christian faith.

    Even Greeks called themselves Romans well into the 19th century ( Ῥωμαῖοι Rhōmaîoi).

  9. #289
    Global Moderator
    Old stary eyes
    Andalublue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Granada, España
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:27 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    23,678

    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Chagos View Post
    Contemporaries of the times never referred to it as Byzantine Empire, moder historians have taken that tack.

    FWIW it defined itself as Roman (later East Roman).

    Basically a formation compiling Roman state form, Greek culture and Christian faith.

    Even Greeks called themselves Romans well into the 19th century ( Ῥωμαῖοι Rhōmaîoi).
    I'm aware of that. The point in dispute is that DDD was claiming that Byzantium was not a predominantly Greek empire. It was. It was never a homogeneously Greek empire, some of its most prominent leaders were of different ethnicities, Isaurians, Illyrians, Armenians, and others, but culturally it was Greek.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  10. #290
    Sage
    Chagos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    in expatria
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:57 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    9,127

    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I'm aware of that. The point in dispute is that DDD was claiming that Byzantium was not a predominantly Greek empire. It was. It was never a homogeneously Greek empire, some of its most prominent leaders were of different ethnicities, Isaurians, Illyrians, Armenians, and others, but culturally it was Greek.
    Well, maybe getting a bit OT by now but it was never a Greek empire. Of course it's a matter of what parameters one applies but culture alone won't cut it.

    Quite apart from which its official language remained Latin until well into the 7th century when Herakleios (who DDD mentions) began "grecianizing" it.

    There had been no independent entity "Greece" since heck knows when, if indeed there ever had been one at all. So no Greek empire could have arisen (Even under Alexander it was the Macedon empire).

    Constantine didn't found a Greek empire, he took power over all of Rome and then made administrative changes, one of them consisting of building a new residence at Byzantium (a town). His place of birth had nothing to do with anything that would have made him un-Roman, certainly as little as Hadrian's Spanish descent would have made his rule Spanish.

    That Greek was spoken thruout the Roman empire and its culture heavily influenced any Roman (and not just those) made Rome as little Greek as the US is English. That goes for what became known as Eastern Rome (with the "Western" decline) as well.

    Indeed Roman armies re-captured a lot of the land that the "barbarians" had vested from what is now the Italian peninsula. That they came from the East got nobody calling them Greek armies.
    Last edited by Chagos; 07-01-15 at 06:59 PM.

Page 29 of 33 FirstFirst ... 192728293031 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •