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Thread: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    There are an infinite number of ways to evade, but most are a variant on the idea of paying the tax man personally a small percentage in return for his elimination of the tax bill.
    And the tax man apparently has the same laissez-faire attitude about life. Nice for the people, not so good for government trying to meet payment demands from creditors. Interesting...

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    And the tax man apparently has the same laissez-faire attitude about life. Nice for the people, not so good for government trying to meet payment demands from creditors. Interesting...

    And now you understand Greece.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    I don't see it that way. Austerity does nothing except squeeze more blood out of a stone. A lot of people are suffering around the world just to maintain a competitive export advantage for Germany.... that's what it amounts to at the end of the day.

    Greece needs to be allowed to grow. Its creditors' demands are ridiculous and hostile.
    A demonstrative example is that wages in Bulgaria are half that of the average Greek wage. Now would that explain why Renault has some of its cars built in Bulgaria rather than Greece?

    One also need see (not disputing the death sentence that austerity has imposed on Greece here) that Germany put heavy austerity measures upon its own people some years ago. Like raising pension age to 67, heavily cutting unemployment benefits, loosening laws that up til then governed firing and hiring, reducing the extent of healthcare etc. and allowing wages to freeze (effectively being reduced by inflation).

    Not Merkel's lot, the Social Democrats that had taken a look at figures and demographics.

    Lost them the next election by the enraged Germans who went to Merkel. Who in turn, along with her bunch, meanwhile firmly believes that it was all her (their) idea, seeing how Germany has long since been reaping in the benefits.

    Funny thing being that those most indignant at the time are now patting themselves on the back and sneering at Greece along the tack of "we had to do our homework, why not you?"

    When the opposition (so small you can hardly find them in parliament) mentions little "unpleasantries" of German banks in the forefront having made a bundle on any loan they could push onto Greek banks in the past (before the meltdown appeared), whether Greece needed it or not, that gets kinda drowned inown self-complacency of the listener.

    I'm all right so eff you Jack.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    And such being the case, it had no business forming a monetary union, as a monetary union without a fiscal policy backing it can never be structurally sound.
    Absolutely.

    As a tidbit, that's what Kohl (then German chancellor) said. He was not opposed at all but except under those conditions.

    The trouble was heavy opposition to German unification, especially by Thatcher and Mitterand. So Mitterand used the opportunity to twist the German arm, i.e. by neutralizing its new potential in robbing it of the DeutschMark and forcing it to accept the Euro. To sort of curbing any control potential it might develop. Otherwise no re-unification. Kohl crumbled.

    BIG BIG mistake (Mitterand's and Thatcher's, not Kohl's). The Euro has done Germany more proud than the DM ever did or could and is actually "harder" still today. And we know how much France is actually controlling Germany, right?

    Won't mention the UK here

    One more OT and then I'm done: Kohl didn't want Italy in it either (Spain and Portugal were not even in the offing then) but Mitterand insisted they come on board. As another counter-balance in case Germany got in bed with the (I'll mention them after all) Brits and joined into their pesky shenanigans.

    Big success, eh?

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Chagos View Post
    A demonstrative example is that wages in Bulgaria are half that of the average Greek wage. Now would that explain why Renault has some of its cars built in Bulgaria rather than Greece?

    One also need see (not disputing the death sentence that austerity has imposed on Greece here) that Germany put heavy austerity measures upon its own people some years ago. Like raising pension age to 67, heavily cutting unemployment benefits, loosening laws that up til then governed firing and hiring, reducing the extent of healthcare etc. and allowing wages to freeze (effectively being reduced by inflation).

    Not Merkel's lot, the Social Democrats that had taken a look at figures and demographics.

    Lost them the next election by the enraged Germans who went to Merkel. Who in turn, along with her bunch, meanwhile firmly believes that it was all her (their) idea, seeing how Germany has long since been reaping in the benefits.

    Funny thing being that those most indignant at the time are now patting themselves on the back and sneering at Greece along the tack of "we had to do our homework, why not you?"

    When the opposition (so small you can hardly find them in parliament) mentions little "unpleasantries" of German banks in the forefront having made a bundle on any loan they could push onto Greek banks in the past (before the meltdown appeared), whether Greece needed it or not, that gets kinda drowned inown self-complacency of the listener.

    I'm all right so eff you Jack.
    Yea, it was " the Banks " fault. Greece didn't ask for those loans, they were FORCED on to them.

    Lol !!! Unbelievable.

    2012 Greece Caught Underreporting Its Deficit by 50 percent

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-0...icit-nearly-50

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Chagos View Post
    Absolutely.

    As a tidbit, that's what Kohl (then German chancellor) said. He was not opposed at all but except under those conditions.

    The trouble was heavy opposition to German unification, especially by Thatcher and Mitterand. So Mitterand used the opportunity to twist the German arm, i.e. by neutralizing its new potential in robbing it of the DeutschMark and forcing it to accept the Euro. To sort of curbing any control potential it might develop. Otherwise no re-unification. Kohl crumbled.

    BIG BIG mistake (Mitterand's and Thatcher's, not Kohl's). The Euro has done Germany more proud than the DM ever did or could and is actually "harder" still today. And we know how much France is actually controlling Germany, right?

    Won't mention the UK here

    One more OT and then I'm done: Kohl didn't want Italy in it either (Spain and Portugal were not even in the offing then) but Mitterand insisted they come on board. As another counter-balance in case Germany got in bed with the (I'll mention them after all) Brits and joined into their pesky shenanigans.

    Big success, eh?
    Some interesting bits of history I did not know. I will have to read up a bit on that.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Some interesting bits of history I did not know. I will have to read up a bit on that.
    Everybody kept mum about it at the time, it didn't come out until later. The conservatives (then in power) are denying it to this day, strangely the French side has no problems admitting it.

    Here ya go: The Price of Unity: Was the Deutsche Mark Sacrificed for Reunification? - SPIEGEL ONLINEall 4 parts are interesting.

    And yeah, the German people didn't want the Euro either.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    This thread has become very informative for me. My knowledge of modern European history is pretty thin relative to its importance. And not to get even further off-topic, I wanna say Mr. Grimm may now be my favourite DP conservative. Remind me what is it yer wrong about?
    "I loved him. You loved him. What good have we done him? Love. Look at yourself. They have a name for faces like that." Anna Schmidt, in The Third Man Anna walks away

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by mmi View Post
    This thread has become very informative for me. My knowledge of modern European history is pretty thin relative to its importance. And not to get even further off-topic, I wanna say Mr. Grimm may now be my favourite DP conservative. Remind me — what is it yer wrong about?
    not that your comment is on topic, but since you asked.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1064756974 (Breaking: US S.Ct. Rules Same Sex Marriage Constitutionally Protected[W:320])

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1064757030 (Breaking: US S.Ct. Rules Same Sex Marriage Constitutionally Protected[W:320])

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by SlevinKelevra View Post
    since you asked.
    Ouch! And I was hoping I might be invited to yer wedding. No big fat Greek ceremony now, eh?

    Fwiw, I'm not gonna say yer "wrong" about that. But I'd like to see you change yer mind. I figure you'd be happier and not lose a thing.
    "I loved him. You loved him. What good have we done him? Love. Look at yourself. They have a name for faces like that." Anna Schmidt, in The Third Man Anna walks away

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