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Thread: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Greetings, Jack.

    How do they get away with that? We've seen pictures of average citizens in the past few days withdrawing their money from the banks, so someone must know how much people have. Do they allow a lot of write-offs that don't have to be substantiated? It sounds like the EU considers the entire country of Greece one big welfare recipient.
    There are an infinite number of ways to evade, but most are a variant on the idea of paying the tax man personally a small percentage in return for his elimination of the tax bill.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    No, it's not. Greek politicians of the centre-left and centre-right, Greek bankers (big time) and Goldman Sachs also bear a lot of responsibility for this catastrophe - it's been a group effort that has produced this cluster-f*** that Tsipras and Varoufakis are trying to resolve.

    Agree on the coconuts though.
    I don't see it that way. Austerity does nothing except squeeze more blood out of a stone. A lot of people are suffering around the world just to maintain a competitive export advantage for Germany.... that's what it amounts to at the end of the day.

    Greece needs to be allowed to grow. Its creditors' demands are ridiculous and hostile.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    They shouldn't have to negotiate and beg for money to begin with. Europe needs to decide whether it's a union or not. If so.... transfer of wealth between states is something that needs to happen regularly and smoothly...it needs to be accepted as such, and not thought of as a loan to begin with.

    And it certainly doesn't need to involve international lenders like the IMF.

    Does Mississippi need to go to the IMF when it needs money from New York?
    Good points. An excellent debate about this on Cadena SER radio this evening made the same point, referring to the case of California's debt crisis. It was pointed out that the ECB and Eurogroup have been behaving as a group of creditors, rather than as a political union, demonstrating that the EU project may have run its course. No solidarity, no union.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    They shouldn't have to negotiate and beg for money to begin with. Europe needs to decide whether it's a union or not. If so.... transfer of wealth between states is something that needs to happen regularly and smoothly...it needs to be accepted as such, and not thought of as a loan to begin with.
    The current position held by near everybody is that Europe not become a transfer union in its current state. You can consider that if there's an all-European government, something that individual populations are truly shy of. Without that it'll soon get to a state where any majority can vote that you shove part of your revenues into some other country and without conditions at that.

    To marry that kind of setup with the complaints about lack of democratic processes, let alone impingement on national sovereignty that the Greeks are currently complaining most about is a tall order.
    And it certainly doesn't need to involve international lenders like the IMF.
    That was mostly Merkel. An insurance to have more control in the same boat. Anyway, everybody spreads risk when they can so why not to the IMF. International lender is precisely what it is.

    Does Mississippi need to go to the IMF when it needs money from New York?
    You mind letting us know the process by which Mississippi could even find a route to borrow from the Apple? Let alone the provisions?

    Besides which the IMF lends to countries, not cities.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Good points. An excellent debate about this on Cadena SER radio this evening made the same point, referring to the case of California's debt crisis. It was pointed out that the ECB and Eurogroup have been behaving as a group of creditors, rather than as a political union, demonstrating that the EU project may have run its course. No solidarity, no union.
    Don't you understand that you cannot compare the EU to the US?

    The US is a nation where it is also a union. The EU is nothing of the sort and the first step to ever even approach such a status would be for all its people to agree on voting a EU government with possible somebody like Merkel or Hollande heading it.

    National elections would be still possible but reduced to municipal status.

    Then and only then can this government decide to bail out Greece or Cyprus the way Madrid passes money to Andalucia or Rome to Campania.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Chagos View Post
    The current position held by near everybody is that Europe not become a transfer union in its current state. You can consider that if there's an all-European government, something that individual populations are truly shy of. Without that it'll soon get to a state where any majority can vote that you shove part of your revenues into some other country and without conditions at that.

    To marry that kind of setup with the complaints about lack of democratic processes, let alone impingement on national sovereignty that the Greeks are currently complaining most about is a tall order. That was mostly Merkel. An insurance to have more control in the same boat. Anyway, everybody spreads risk when they can so why not to the IMF. International lender is precisely what it is.
    Oh I agree, there is a solid divide between what needs to happen and what is politically possible. And that, my friend, is highly concerning. Without the ability to transfer wealth from one state to the other, the Eurozone remains structurally unsound and crisis situations such as this one we're going through will remain a regular thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chagos View Post
    You mind letting us know the process by which Mississippi could even find a route to borrow from the Apple? Let alone the provisions?

    Besides which the IMF lends to countries, not cities.
    The USA has a federal government. US federal taxes are about 20% of GDP (compared to EU, which taxes about 1% of GDP), but US states barely tax at all (compared to EU, where the individual states tax heavily).

    If Mississippi needs money, they go to the federal government (well-capitalized by the high taxes) and request federal spending or a grant. This process is normally unceremonious and, unlike the crisis in Greece, it doesn't make the front page of CNN and it doesn't panic global investors, nor does it stress global banks and lending institutions.

    On the whole, New York pays more in federal taxes than it receives in allotments. But that's the way a union is supposed to work.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Anyway, a little light relief...

    120374_600.jpg
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    There are an infinite number of ways to evade, but most are a variant on the idea of paying the tax man personally a small percentage in return for his elimination of the tax bill.
    In addition to which it should be noted that a competent tax administration is practically non-existent. That equates to lack of records/registrations.

    Not for all and everybody but for many.

    The real estate market is even worsely (if that is a word) administered. In most cases nobody knows who owns what. No idea whether it still applies today but in my time a house wasn't "complete" while the struts to support the setting roof were still up.
    That meant loads of houses with struts (the gables). No completion, no registration, no taxes.

    No building inspectors, no rules, no permits. No records.

    If one of the few inspectors did come by, palm grease.

    I couldn't even get a sample delivery (small can of harmless base chemical that one could still take on a plane then) thru customs without bribing the officers. To do the work they were paid to do already, not to turn a blind eye to something illegal (which it wasn't).

    Greece is and was defunct in more ways than just economically. A culture as you rightly say.

    I love the people to bits and always have but facts will be facts.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Oh I agree, there is a solid divide between what needs to happen and what is politically possible. And that, my friend, is highly concerning. Without the ability to transfer wealth from one state to the other, the Eurozone remains structurally unsound and crisis situations such as this one we're going through will remain a regular thing.
    That's it in a nutshell.


    The USA has a federal government.
    ............and there we have it. The EU does not.
    US federal taxes are about 20% of GDP (compared to EU, which taxes about 1% of GDP), but US states barely tax at all (compared to EU, where the individual states tax heavily).

    If Mississippi needs money, they go to the federal government (well-capitalized by the high taxes) and request federal spending or a grant. This process is normally unceremonious and, unlike the crisis in Greece, it doesn't make the front page of CNN and it doesn't panic global investors, nor does it stress global banks and lending institutions.

    On the whole, New York pays more in federal taxes than it receives in allotments. But that's the way a union is supposed to work.
    Again, the union in this case is a federation. Germany is a federation, come to think of it. Transfers are common in both and in other countries, be they constituted as a confederation or not.

    The EU is not a federation and as such not a union as the US is (are).

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Chagos View Post
    That's it in a nutshell.


    ............and there we have it. The EU does not. Again, the union in this case is a federation. Germany is a federation, come to think of it. Transfers are common in both and in other countries, be they constituted as a confederation or not.

    The EU is not a federation and as such not a union as the US is (are).
    And such being the case, it had no business forming a monetary union, as a monetary union without a fiscal policy backing it can never be structurally sound.

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