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Thread: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

  1. #221
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    All the damage was inflicted years ago by the corrupt régimes of Nea Demokratia and PASOK. It was caused by fraudulent submissions coached by Goldman Sachs and by the criminally-irresponsible and repeated blind-eyes turned by the ECB, IMF, EU and German, French and Dutch politicians who so desperately wished the creation of the Eurozone to cover as many nations as possible, whether or not it was appropriate.

    Syriza has caused none of it.
    Where I agree in principle, also on Syriza not having had any hand in bringing the state to where it wound up, I disagree on the no-responsibility take of Tzipras and Varoufakis in this current stalemate.

    These two (and their minions) are beginning to make it sound like they got a call last Thursday, where the bank manager asked them to come in for a talk. To then tell them that their credit line has been canceled.

    The main problem of the Greek people currently is that they're not being told the truth by their own. They weren't told it with the impossible promises made during the last election campaign, not with Syriza and associates getting elected and maintaining their stance that they could end austerity, and they're not being told it now with the delusion upheld that all will be well in the future, if only a nation of 11 million and of negligible economy will stand up to the 28 other EU states (inside or outside the currency) and their 500+ million people, a large part of who actually contribute to the coffers rather than taking from.

    In this Tzipras and Co. are as prevaricating as all predecessors that profligated the country into its current state.

    The sense and reason of imposing austerity on a nation that's already failing economically is another topic altogether, as is the issue of inviting in a country like Greece against all common fiscal sense in the first place..

    But today where HERE and that's where the music plays.

    This lamentable state has been going on for the past 5 years (as far as surfacing and addressing is concerned) and has gone completely South as of January this year.

    Let's see if the Troika can salvage something from their monumental mismanagement of the negotiations.
    By the latest count it's going to be a "duo". The IMF is unlikely to concern itself any further with a bunch of crooks that publicly declare not repaying any debt to it anymore.

    If these latest negotiations were mismanaged (mainly) by the EU finance ministers (not the Troika), then I don't know what the heck to call Tzipras' and Souvlaki's antics. Because even "mismanagement" contains the word "manage".

    I don't know enough people in Greece to get a representative picture but those I talk to are all going to vote "yes" (to Europe).

    With Syriza getting 36+ pct of the vote in January on promises of what by now is clear they can't deliver, I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of Greeks go the "yes" route as well.

    Even if Syriza got a bit more than Hitler in November 1932.

    I hold the Greeks not to be so daft as not to know that "money for nothing and the chicks for free" is strictly something for the HIFI.

  2. #222
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    I'd be surprised to find a single Greek who pays what he really owes.
    Perhaps we were both a bit unclear. You had said, "No one pays his/her taxes in Greece." I guess you meant no one pays all their taxes.
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by mmi View Post
    Perhaps we were both a bit unclear. You had said, "No one pays his/her taxes in Greece." I guess you meant no one pays all their taxes.
    No one pays even a reasonable share.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    No one pays even a reasonable share.
    How many Americans cheat on their taxes?
    "I loved him. You loved him. What good have we done him? Love. Look at yourself. They have a name for faces like that." — Anna Schmidt, in The Third Man ……Anna walks away

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by mmi View Post
    How many Americans cheat on their taxes?
    Our voluntary compliance is substantially (as in by a light year) greater than the Greeks'.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Our voluntary compliance is substantially (as in by a light year) greater than the Greeks'.
    Alright, alright! You win. They should be like Democrats and pay up.

    And Andalublue still has you on "the poor are taxed at source."
    Last edited by mmi; 06-30-15 at 07:15 PM.
    "I loved him. You loved him. What good have we done him? Love. Look at yourself. They have a name for faces like that." — Anna Schmidt, in The Third Man ……Anna walks away

  7. #227
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Chagos View Post
    Where I agree in principle, also on Syriza not having had any hand in bringing the state to where it wound up, I disagree on the no-responsibility take of Tzipras and Varoufakis in this current stalemate.

    These two (and their minions) are beginning to make it sound like they got a call last Thursday, where the bank manager asked them to come in for a talk. To then tell them that their credit line has been canceled.

    The main problem of the Greek people currently is that they're not being told the truth by their own. They weren't told it with the impossible promises made during the last election campaign, not with Syriza and associates getting elected and maintaining their stance that they could end austerity, and they're not being told it now with the delusion upheld that all will be well in the future, if only a nation of 11 million and of negligible economy will stand up to the 28 other EU states (inside or outside the currency) and their 500+ million people, a large part of who actually contribute to the coffers rather than taking from.

    In this Tzipras and Co. are as prevaricating as all predecessors that profligated the country into its current state.

    The sense and reason of imposing austerity on a nation that's already failing economically is another topic altogether, as is the issue of inviting in a country like Greece against all common fiscal sense in the first place..

    But today where HERE and that's where the music plays.

    This lamentable state has been going on for the past 5 years (as far as surfacing and addressing is concerned) and has gone completely South as of January this year.

    By the latest count it's going to be a "duo". The IMF is unlikely to concern itself any further with a bunch of crooks that publicly declare not repaying any debt to it anymore.

    If these latest negotiations were mismanaged (mainly) by the EU finance ministers (not the Troika), then I don't know what the heck to call Tzipras' and Souvlaki's antics. Because even "mismanagement" contains the word "manage".

    I don't know enough people in Greece to get a representative picture but those I talk to are all going to vote "yes" (to Europe).

    With Syriza getting 36+ pct of the vote in January on promises of what by now is clear they can't deliver, I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of Greeks go the "yes" route as well.

    Even if Syriza got a bit more than Hitler in November 1932.

    I hold the Greeks not to be so daft as not to know that "money for nothing and the chicks for free" is strictly something for the HIFI.
    I disagree with you almost entirely, for a number of reasons:

    1. The EU knew what previous Greek governments were doing to falsify the stats, and allowed them to join the Eurozone anyway.
    2. The Troika know that their austerity approach has failed, and acknowledge that it cannot work to turn the situation around, yet insist on imposing it.
    3. The EU know that their intransigence risks the end of the Euro project, but cannot or will not show any leadership or imagination in changing a failed and failing policy.
    4. The Syriza government must be feeling bolstered by the growing evidence that suggests that a Grexit, whilst almost unbearable in its short-term consequences, suggests possible medium- to long-term recovery that Troika austerity measures guarantee never to deliver, as the IMF's own analysis shows.
    5. The IMF's double standards in its attitude towards Ukraine demonstrates that it is pursuing a political rather than economic agenda, applying its conditionality precepts towards Greece, but not towards Ukraine.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    There are 13 members of the EU that do not adhere to that Maastricht Treaty's stipulation that debt should not exceed 60% of GDP - and those 13 include France, Netherlands and...Germany.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...by_public_debt
    The entered the EU under false pretenses and spent beyond their means until their debt was given a junk status ?
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  9. #229
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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Our voluntary compliance is substantially (as in by a light year) greater than the Greeks'.
    Greetings, Jack.

    How do they get away with that? We've seen pictures of average citizens in the past few days withdrawing their money from the banks, so someone must know how much people have. Do they allow a lot of write-offs that don't have to be substantiated? It sounds like the EU considers the entire country of Greece one big welfare recipient.

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    Re: Greece's Tsipras calls referendum to break bailout deadlock

    Paul Krugman:
    " ...Greece should vote “no,” and the Greek government should be ready, if necessary, to leave the euro. To understand why I say this, you need to realize that most ... of what you’ve heard about Greek profligacy and irresponsibility is false. Yes, the Greek government was spending beyond its means in the late 2000s. But ... all the austerity measures ... been more than enough to eliminate the original deficit and turn it into a large surplus.
    So why didn’t this happen? Because the Greek economy collapsed, largely as a result of those very austerity measures, dragging revenues down with it. And this collapse, in turn, had a lot to do with the euro, which trapped Greece in an economic straitjacket. Cases of successful austerity ... typically involve large currency devaluations... But Greece, without its own currency, didn’t have that option. . .."

    Economist's View: Paul Krugman: Greece Over the Brink
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